Do you believe in a deity?

[OaklandReb]

Do you believe in a higher power than yourself?

If so, why and which one :
Perhaps it's Elohim from Judaism?
Possibly it's YHWH or Yahweh from Christianity?
Maybe it's Allah from Islam?
Or maybe it's Thor, Zeus, Odin, or some pagan deity?

If not, why?

Thanks for answering.

 

[drreb]

I have been waiting to see if anyone would answer your question and all has been quiet, so I`ll go ahead and speak up. Yes. I do believe in God Almighty, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The God of the Hebrew people is the same as my God, but I would guess that the majority of Jews do not think of Jesus as the Messiah. Having looked at the other few that you mentioned, they just don`t measure up or make good sense.
Why do you ask?

 

[OaklandReb]

Thanks for the reply, drreb.

I'll tackle your last question first.
The reason why I ask is simple; I moved to the States a couple of decades ago. I am originally from Liverpool in the United Kingdom. I gained citizenship as an American citizen eventually and have had dual citizenship for quite some time now.

The UK is quite diverse in terms of religion. There are millions of Christians, millions of Muslims, and probably a million or more Jews throughout the Isle. Atheism is also quite prevalent throughout the UK as well, and some minor religions such as Paganism, etc are also noticeable in the UK.

Having lived in Mississippi for quite a spell now (with holidays usually spent with family in the UK) I've noticed just how prevalent Christianity is, and I thought I would create a thread to see how many of the Rebel family are Christians, Muslims, etc, etc. I myself am a former churchgoer of the CoE (Church of England) who occasionally goes with my wife to Mass. Atheist or "Not Bothered" if you like, could be what you could classify me as but my wife is a Catholic who very rarely misses Mass.

I'm not quite sure where in Mississippi you are from (if you even live in the state), but I've noticed an 18-wheeler ( they are called lorry in English-English) trailer parked in an Oxonian's lot right by the red light on Highway 6 turning onto West Jackson Avenue. It reads "Put God back in our lives, schools, and government." Having seen it for some time now, and having had a look on the "Separation of Church and State" in the US, I am fascinated by that sign and really the mindset of this State in terms of religion. Since I left the CoE and started on the most interesting path of Atheism, I've done some spot research into different religions here and there.

Having looked at the US Constitution, as well as the Supreme Court ruling in 1963 banning prayer and the reasons it was banned, I am curious as to why the majority of people would want to "re-instate" a deity whose likelihood of existence is just as probable as any other deity in man's history. I don't think that any one deity should be given preferential treatment and most certainly it shouldn't be given my tax dollars. Correct me if I am wrong, but religion is personal relationship between a person and that person's god, right? That has no place in public institutions.
That is one of my reasons.

The other reason is, if you believe in a deity, as you have stated that you do, I'd like to know exactly why you believe in him.

The CoE experience left me with a bitter experience. It seemed to be more of an "Old Boy's Club" more than a religious institution. Call my 2nd query a mid-life re-examination or something of the like if you want to.

Could you please elaborate on the whole Trinity concept?
Also, if the Hebrew god is also your god, are you not a bit, erm, frightened? That is the god who turned a servant into a pillar of salt for disobeying, right? Isn't he also the same deity who massacred historical Israel's enemies at his whim? He seem like quite the grumpy deity to me. (Not to mention a tad sadistical)

Lastly, why do the others "not measure up or make good sense."? What makes them any different from your god?

Again, thanks for replying mate! :cheers:
This post was edited on 6/29 10:29 PM by OaklandReb

 

[drreb]

You have valid questions that would require a longer time to discuss than I can take to respond on a message board, but I`ll go a small way with you. BTW welcome to Miss and Ole Miss. Yes I live in Miss, 3Rd generation Ole Miss, and both my sons graduated from there and played football for the Rebels.
I don`t know how serious you are about getting answers, but here goes a try at some of them.
Yes, my God is the same God as the Hebrew God and no, it`s not scary. You see, there was this event about 200 yrs ago where God took all His anger out on His Son to pay a debt for man that was required due to treason against God. God did get agry prior to this event and some bad things happened due to His chosen people, who were supposed to be a nation of priests. This nation(Jews) were supposed to be the example of how to worship God and have a relationship with Him.
Christ(God) came to the earth as a man just as He promised about 166 times in the Old Testiment and was sacrificed. BTW, which of the other religions you mentioned had a God who would die for man? Christ did not come to earth to eastablish a religion. He came to enable us to have a personal relationship with God. Religion is man`s attempt to reach up to God.....that is impossible. God will and has been willing to reach down to us for a relationship that is personal.....very personal. We(as man) have a free will and can choose whom or what to love or have relationship. We have the power of free choice, but not the right to choose wrong things.(You have the power to kill, steal, and cheat, but not the right to do those things)
If you are really serious about your questions, may I suggest a book? "The Father and His family" by E. W. Kenyon. Can be found on Amazon for very little money. Mr Kenyon died in 1948 but this is a very interesting book.
Why do I believe? Well, that`s a question to be answered face to face one day, but let`s just say I ran up against a situation in which I was helpless and needed a greater power than I had ever known. I simply asked for help from a God I had never had anything but a scant knowledge of, and was directed to that book(he wrote 9-10) and situations changed for me.
I am not gullible nor am I stupid. I am an Ole Miss grad, have an MD, and a medical specialty board. There is a God. There is only one God, He cared enough to die for me, and remains alive. Get a good book on comparitive religion and see how many others can say that.
Good luck on your journey and may you find truth......it is important.

 

[OaklandReb]

Many thanks to you for the welcome! I have been supporting the Rebs since 1984.

- You said "You see, there was this event about 200 yrs ago where God took all His anger out on His Son to pay a debt for man that was required due to treason against God."

-- My response: From what I was taught as a lad, and what Catholic priests have told me the whole Trinity concept goes something along these lines: God is one, yet he is 3. Now seeing as how he is all 3 of those that make up the Trinity, why on earth would he kill himself? I was under the impression that he wasn't very fond of suicide? Seems a tad hypocritical to me, mate.

-You said "God did get agry prior to this event and some bad things happened due to His chosen people, who were supposed to be a nation of priests. This nation(Jews) were supposed to be the example of how to worship God and have a relationship with Him."

-- My response: So why did he take it out on other people? I have been told that God is love. Yet wiping out entire civilisations and killing the spouse of one of his followers doesn't seem very loving to me.

-You said " BTW, which of the other religions you mentioned had a God who would die for man?"

--My response: As far as I am aware from a recent through reading of the Old Testament, Islam and Judaism are connected to Christianity from the same patriarch - Abraham (Ibrahim in Islam). Now seeing as how I think we can both agree that is an established fact, I think it is logical to infer that Judaism and Islam worship the same deity as you do, albeit from a different name. Seeing as how we have established all of that, and seeing as how Islam takes all that the Talmud and Bible write and builds on it (they are the youngest religion connected to Abraham), I suppose you could say that Islam would.

-You said "We(as man) have a free will and can choose whom or what to love or have relationship. We have the power of free choice..."

--My response: What would you say to those who believe in predestination? I assume that you would agree with the statement "God knows what will happen to us and I have faith that he will guide us through this tough time." ? That in itself implicitly says that humans have no free will in a relationship with God.

-You said "If you are really serious about your questions, may I suggest a book? "The Father and His family" by E. W. Kenyon. Can be found on Amazon for very little money. Mr Kenyon died in 1948 but this is a very interesting book."

--My response: Thank you for the suggestion. I will certainly be looking into it.

-You said "I simply asked for help from a God I had never had anything but a scant knowledge of, and was directed to that book(he wrote 9-10) and situations changed for me."

--My response: Seeing as how you have made it clear that this was quite the personal situation, and as I agree that this is probably not the best place to answer it, I do have but one question: Are you quite sure that the situation that changed did not change as a result of a fellow human being's actions?

---To respond to a final statement of yours, there are actually several religions which have a deity dying for his or her followers.

1. Mithra in Zoroastrianism sacrifices himself for his followers.
There are one or two others, but off the top of my head, I forget their names.

Thanks for the luck, drreb and I hope I do.

 

[JPelham]

You are approaching a complex issue as if it is a reflex about a bumper sticker. I'm sorry about your experience with your congregation, which is hardly relevant to the larger question. You should make a more serious attempt at the most important question.

 

[OaklandReb]

Thanks for the reply, JPelham.

A complex issue you say? From my experience, and from what I have been told from the local lot's preachers and priests, it's quite simple. They claim to have a relationship with the deity known as YHWH or Yahweh via the deity's 2nd form of a Trinity which goes by the name of Jesus Christ. It is understandable that they would rather communicate with the manifestation or deity or 1/3rd part or whatever you want to term Christ as, seeing as how the head honcho, Yahweh is quite honestly, despicable. The barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament is quite appalling to me. How any Christian can stomach knowing their deity did all that is described in the OT is a great mystery to me. When he isn't smiting or wiping out entire civilisations, he is loathing women. Quite the character he is, in my opinion. As for your rather amusing terminology of my approach to it all, that is about the only way I can approach it, mate. When I was a member of the CoE, I was told I had to accept Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour. I agreed to do that and prayed daily for nearly 15 years. I never had any voice in my head when I prayed to YHWH or Christ, I never had an answered prayer, and quite honestly in the end gave it up as a bad job. It was a waste of my money and a waste of my time. I did have the great "luck" of meeting a terrific woman whom in time I married. She is a devout Catholic and drags me to Mass at least once a month. It is always quite amusing to me, for several reasons. If you know anything about the UK's history, it has been erm, terse since old Henry VIII wanted to get a divorce and the Pope refused. Catholics and Brits get on as well as ice in the heat! More amusing to me, is how in the heck is Catholicism deemed a "monotheistic" religion? I mean goodness, you have YHWH, you have Christ, you have Mary, you have an armada of Saints, etc all of whom can be prayed to. Seems like a load of old bollocks to me.

You say my experience is hardly relevant eh? How so?
Quite luckily for me, I have a friend who was born and bred here in MS, and he is quite the Country music fan. He once played a song which I can never forget now, seeing as how it has so much truth to it, both here in Mississippi and also in the UK. I will give a link to it at the bottom.

A more serious attempt? Well now lad, I've been making attempts at going back to Christianity for nearly 22 year now. I cannot do it though. I'd sincerely like to believe that there is a "something" watching over me, but from the evidence available to me, I see no deity or "something" watching over me. Which brings up an interesting point, how do you know with absolute certainty that there is a deity looking over you? What proof do you have? In the chat that DocReb and myself have been having, he has informed me that he has had a personal experience that has given him evidence without question that there is a deity, and in his case it is YHWH. I can respect that, no doubt about it. The thing is though, that while his experience makes him absolutely certain about the deity's existence, it does absolutely nothing for me in terms of providing solid evidence of YHWH's existence.

In my long and winding road from religion, I have looked into Islam also. Quite frankly, it startled me that Allah is as violent as YHWH is in the Old Testament. Needless to say, after checking out more about it, I don't really think I will be joining Islam anytime soon. I must say, Zoroastrianism is quite interesting as well.

Have you read the Bible in it's entirety, JPelham and DocReb?
I have done so twice. I suppose the reason why I am re-researching the whole religion deal is that I feel my age and I am aware that I have maybe only 2-3 decades left(if I am lucky) at the most. (52 years old)

Anyway, again, thanks for the reply. I look forward to the responses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNf3eHJGe70

 

[drreb]

Oakland, You have posed some serious questions, but none yet that I didn`t ask at some time or another. Asking serious questions is certainly no crime(or sin) if they are sincere and seek answers for yourself. I`ll take a stab at some of these with the limigted time I have today...
1. About the trinity....Yes, 3 in 1, but each has a specific purpose in the relationship with man. One may sit down and read the entire Bible and enjoy the history and many stories about the experience of men. Now a different way to read the Bible is to read it with the help of the one who wrote(inspired) it. Many things kinda open up and become very personal with that help. Not hard at all to get the help....just sincerely ask for it.
2. About the death of Christ....It gets somewhat complex here. Example here may be a better way to explain this. Let`s say Rome 2000yrs ago set up a colony in America and appointed a governor to rule said colony. This governor commits treason against Roman rule. What is the penalty for high treason? The governor would be under a death sentence, right? Now suppose another man who had no part of the treason agreed to die instead of the governor? He would agree to be a "substitute" for the criminal because he loved the criminal so much that he didn`t want to see him die. The law said someone had to die for this treason and now we have a volunteer, a man, free of all treason and crime. Of course there is more to the substitutionary work of Christ, but I think you can see the basic premis.
3. My situation was not improved by actions of any man.
4. No, the god of islam is in no way anything like my God. Alla was a god chosen from over 200-300 gods already worshipped by middle eastern peoples in and around Mecca. Islam is a religion of "works" and things to do to be good enough to qualify for heaven. God is immutable, omnipotent, eternal, omnipiscient(sp), Holy, Forgiving, and can be approached but one way. No matter how "good" I am, my "rightiousness is only filthy rags in His sight". Really only one way to establish a relationship with God. All God has ever asked of us is to believe Him and take Him at His word. I simply decided one day to do this and so far, He has kept His part of the contract(covenant).

 

[jmb0352]

I've never been a believer of any kind my friend. I was rasied methodist, and I joined when I was 16.... I didn't take though.

I don't know if I'm right about there not being any higher power, the truth is, I don't know for sure. I guess I'll find out one day. Hopefully not soon.

I always had this idea that one supreme being/higher power, created all religions in order to get people to lead pure and ho9nest lives. All religions/most, are peaceful in nature. Maybe anyone who lives good and honest lives under any religion goes to some kind of "heaven."

I try to be fair and kind to every one I meet, and that philosophy has served me well to this point. If there is a god, I hope he forgives me for not believing, and looks back at my entire life in judgement. I know that I've lived better than many people who have claimed Jesus Christ as their savior.
This post was edited on 7/6 2:39 PM by jmb0352

 

[drreb]

jmb....No, a higher power did not create a religion of any kind. Religion is man`s attempt to reach God. It won`t work because it`s higher than you or I can reach. God must and will reach down to you, if asked, and you and He can develop a personal relationship that is meaningful. Yes, there are many Christians who don`t act as if they know what Christ was all about and I`m sorry about that. Christ only asked us to do one thing.."love one another even as I have loved you". You know, when I read that, the "even as" kinda floors me a bit.
God gave man the power of free choice and that is a very powerful thing. Kinda like holding an activated atom bomb in your lap! I just did what seemed like the best thing for me in that situation. I gave that power back to Him. He gave us the power to have freedom of choice, but He didn`t give us the right to make wrong and hurtful choices. All our choices have consequences, some good and some bad. I do my best to make choices that fit with the "even as" part of that new commandment. I don`t always get it right but I get it right more than I used to and I am at peace with my choices made devoid of pride, hate, and greed. Choices made in love seem to disarm adversaries and I don`t have to worry about who I`m supposed to hate that day or week. I do sleep better.
jmb, I hope you find what you are seeking. I did but I had to ask for help that is available for anyone who will ask. "Seek and you will find, ask and it shall be given unto you".

 

[OaklandReb]

@ DocReb: Welcome back and thanks for the answers.

Response to #1:
Well now mate, long ago I asked "the bloke upstairs" for help, and I never received it. I cannot read it as you suggest without his help. Over a decade of my life passed and I never heard any voice in my head. This was immediately after I "was saved". As I say, over ten years went by and no response from him/her.

Response to #2:
I'm afraid I don't follow you on this one. In your response that you labeled #1, you agree with Thomas Aquinas' little ditty that I used that YHWH is one, yet YHWH is 3. You then tell me they are 3 seperate entities. Yet before you agreed with this, you said that all 3 are, in fact, YHWH (One). I see roughly what you are saying, but YHWH committing suicide to himself, for himself, seems a bit sick and twisted, not to mention that totally blows the "If you commit suicide, you go to Hell." bit all to pieces. Totally illogical if you ask me mate.

Response to #3:
I see.

Response to #4:
Oh contrare my friend, YHWH and Allah (Yallah?) are quite similar. I assume as a man of the book, you have read the Bible from front to back? Yes? If so, when you read the Qur'an and you compare it to the Old Testament, the two are identical. Both are vengeful, both are malevolent, and both have an appetite for seared flesh it would seem, from all the civilisations the two of them wiped out.
- The Muslim deity, Allah, is a god after the likeness of god of the Jews. (Ehlohim). Now if I remember correctly, you agreed that the god of the Jews and the god of the Christians (YHWH) are one and the same, because Christianity builds on Judaism. Christianity was also quite prevalent when Islam was founded. (622 Common Era ; or AD if you prefer the term). The founder, Muhammad, deplored the polytheism he saw in Mecca, and sought to found a monotheistic religion in the likeness of the Judaism. I'm not sure whether you have compared the two, but for all the both of them bicker, they sure do have a lot in common!
--On the "works" bit, is not Catholicism the same?

---As for your omnipotent and omniscience argument, I have a wee ditty to ask you that I heard back in the UK: "Can omniscient God ,who knows the future, find the omnipotence to change his future mind?"
It hasn't escaped logicians and myself that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If your god YHWH is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means that he is not omnipotent.

---- As I said before, I would like to take the Judeo-Christian god at his word, but I cannot bring myself to do so. I'm afraid verses like the following just disgust me so much that I cannot believe in him or worship him due to the "evilness" (pardon the borrowing of that word please, mate) that I see. All of the verses I am about to quote you are from the NIV Bible:

1. Exodus 31:12-15
12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

2. 1 Samuel 6:19-20
19 But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy [a] of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them, 20 and the men of Beth Shemesh asked, "Who can stand in the presence of the LORD, this holy God? To whom will the ark go up from here?"

3. Isaiah 13:15-18
15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.

16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.

17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.

18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children.

4. 2 Kings 2:23-24
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

And before you dismiss this as Old Testament "unenlightened" acts, I might remind you..... :

----> Luke 16:17
17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

(Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. No one other then Jesus said so.)

 

[OaklandReb]

@ jmb0352: Welcome mate! I'll not lie to you, I cannot believe what I am reading. I thought that from the looks (and stats that I will provide at the bottom) of things that I was the only one who thought that there might not be a deity out there. It is rather encouraging to see that others have the same mindset as I do.

I also subscribe to the "be fair and kind to every one I meet." philosophy.

I think that if a deity truly exists, he will think that doubt is humble. In his "Word", if I am not mistaken, he (all 3 Abrahamic deities) respects meekness and humility. Here in Mississippi, it takes bollocks (balls) to declare a questioning of the Judeo-Christian deity and I salute you for it. I'm not the type to go about being a militant disbeliever and wearing it on me arm, and normally I don't comment in real life about religion much unless I am asked, but I have gotten into a scrap or two since I have lived in this state over religious (or lack thereof, in my case) beliefs. I still don't understand why some here want to get quite angry over a questioning of their god. The blokes asked me did I believe in God (To which I asked which one, and they looked incredulous that I asked that) and when they classified which one they were talking about, I replied with a simple no. Not content with my answer, they proceeded to tell me how YHWH created the earth in 7 days. I let them bang on about that for about an hour and a half, and after they were done, I inquired of them "Could the earth's existence not be a product of the Big Bang and Evolution by way of Natural Selection?" Well, that set them off something fierce. Apparently this one bloke in particular didn't appreciate the fact that I had inadvertently suggested that an ape was his ancestor. He started on with lots of cursing and absolutely pointless racial epithets which all culminated in him throwing a fist at me (missed badly, I might add. I reckon the Bud Light had something to do with that?). Needless to say, I wasn't about to take that lightly and I beat his arse and was asked to leave.

The whole point of that anecdote of mine was to say "Well done, jmb0352." I don't know if you have ever run into the situation I just told you about, and frankly I don't care if this is the internet and not real life, but as I say, it takes bollocks to write or say what you have posted.

Cheers mate.

P.S @ DocReb and jmb0352: The stats I mentioned are right below this.

Religiousity of the US states

 

[drreb]

Good questions Oakland, but I have only a short time the AM to type, so I`ll get to a few.
1. God is a "bloke upstairs". God is the author of all things and will never be completely understood in all His attributes. He IS Holy, omnipotent, immutable, omniscient, and the alpha and omega. His ways are not our ways. I understand your frustration about "being saved" with no evident change in your life, but there could be the problem with the relationship. If I hand you a calculus book(I never could understand the stuff) and come back in a week or so and ask you to solve some calculus problems, could you solve them without some serious study of the book? I know I couldn`t, but that doesn`t mean that calculus doesn`t work. It simply means that the book isn`t understood and enough study has not been done on the subject matter with the aim of grasping as much of it as you could master. Might also help if you studied the book with the author. I took physiology under Dr Guyton who wrote our book.....helped a lot. Joining a church does not "save" anyone anymore than joining the rotary club will save you. Christ said.."I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life". There is a church and then there is The Church...different things with very different meanings.
There is but one God but for our benifit He is 3 people(hard for us to get this one) and each has a specific purpose. God the Father, source of all things, truth, and power. Christ(The Son) The Word of God, who was the one to inhabit earth as a man and die as a substitute for man.(see the story about entering the sheepfold through the gate vs any other way of entering). Holy Spirit(God`s presence on eath today. Comforter, teacher, and the One who dwells inside believer`s hearts for the purpose of teaching(see reading the Bible with the author).
BTW, what good would come from the substitutionary death of a man gthat was just as much a sinner as the man who committed the treason? The substitute had to be perfect and he had to be a man born on earth. Kinda narrows the field a bit? Not suicide at all, but a planned event that was planned from before time began. Omniscience would mean that God knew man would sin(He is outside time and can see the beginning and the end).
Of course they "seem" to be quite similar. It takes a bit of truth mixed with the untruth to foll an intelligent man. Let`s see now, Mohammed saw the statues in a Catholic church and became disgusted, right? Went into a cave and stayed there a while until he met a man with "new" ideas. He then left the cave to start a new religion(remember what that word means) and it didn`t get off the ground. Then another new idea called "coversion by the sword" and then thing started to roll. Islam is still a religion of "works" and that negates it right there. What good deed could you or I possibly do to merit being a son of the living God? New word in the discussion now....rightiousness, or the ability to be in "right standing with God". He cannot abide sinful stuff(see some of your examples on down your page), so we have to be made rightious by a sacrifice of a worthy abosolutely sinless man(Christ). Then with that firm belief,faith, and obedience, we actually become the rightiousness of God in His sight.
Have to go now, got a few sick folks to see. Hope to continue at a later time. Peace

 

[drreb]

P.S. ....I never dismiss the Old Testiment of the Bible as anything but true. As you mentioned, Christ came to fulfill the Law and not alter it. But, the Old Testiment does discuss who is coming, what He will do, when He is coming, and what will happen to Him. Isiah 53 is a particularly descriptive discussion of the Christ. Daniel discusses the time. The Psalms discuss teh Messiah multiple times. No, the two sections of the Bible are linked. Christ Himself said if you didn`t believe Moses, then you won`t believe Me.
I`m going to make an assumption here, and I could be wrong, but I will do it in love. An attempt to get us both thinking on the same scale. God is much bigger than you or I can imagine. God loves man. God only asks that we believe what He says and that is all He has ever asked from us. Holds the entire universe in the span of His hand. He knows the number of stars in the universe and has named them all, knows how many hairs are on your head, knows when a sparrow falls, knows your name, and cares about you. Gave you the free will to love Him or reject Him. Seek Him or not to seek Him. God does not send anyone to hell, man can choose to go there .....or not. I have a peace about all this(didn`t have it all my life though) and I won`t get angry with a true seeker or argue with one. We can discuss all these things in a rational manner and I`ll hang in there with you. I would ask that you look up that book by Kenyon though. Read that book with an open Bible nearby and then we can really discuss things a bit better. No, I don`t get royalties off the book. I just happened to run up on it one day. The Kingdom of God is a concept we have yet to touch on, and that is covered a bit there as well as by another writer named Myles Monroe.

 

[OaklandReb]

----> You know Doc, it's a pity that we don't have more room to write our responses, isn't it?

Now Doc, I had hoped that I wouldn't see the answer I see that you have given me, "and will never be completely understood in all His attributes." That my friend, is the ultimate cop-out in my most humble opinion. Really now, that's like saying "Oi, there isn't any use in trying to do anymore research. He's mysterious like that and you are wasting your time!".

I know that you think YHWH is the "3 O's" and the alpha and the omega, but I have already replied to that and you seemingly ignored it. As I said before, "Can omniscient God ,who knows the future, find the omnipotence to change his future mind?"
It hasn't escaped logicians and myself that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If your god YHWH is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means that he is not omnipotent. Also, may I point inquire, so YHWH screws a mortal woman, incarnates in her womb, has himself tortured to almost death ( being god it's difficult to die after all ) in order to revise a rule he made himself, in his omniscience? That rather puts a dent in all of your "O's", mate. Can't argue with the alpha and omega bit, but that also is still out for the jury.

--->"Might also help if you studied the book with the author."
I also addressed that one mate, I cannot read it as you suggest without his help. Over a decade of my life passed and I never heard any voice in my head. This was immediately after I "was saved". As I say, over ten years went by and no response from him/her.

------>"BTW, what good would come from the substitutionary death of a man gthat was just as much a sinner as the man who committed the treason?"
-Neither the old nor the new testament support the taking-anger-out-on-his-son bit.

-------->"Mohammed saw the statues in a Catholic church and became disgusted, right?"
-- No, he was selling his merchandise in Mecca (he was a merchant seemingly) and became aware of all the pagan and polytheistic deities in Mecca and sought to found a monotheistic religion.

---------->"Went into a cave and stayed there a while until he met a man with "new" ideas."
--- According to the qur'an, the christian angel known as Gabriel came and visited him and told him what god wanted.

----------->"He then left the cave to start a new religion(remember what that word means) and it didn`t get off the ground."
---- Correct, in 10 years he gained 150 followers.

------------> "Then another new idea called "coversion by the sword" and then thing started to roll."
-----Quite right. Are you aware of where he got it from? Judaism and Christianity. Have you ever read a boo entitled "Abraham's Sacrifice" by Bruce Chilton? It details all of this.

------------->"Islam is still a religion of "works" and that negates it right there."
------ So you are saying that 1 billion Catholics in the world have it all wrong and are wasting their time?

-------------->"What good deed could you or I possibly do to merit being a son of the living God? New word in the discussion now....rightiousness, or the ability to be in "right standing with God". He cannot abide sinful stuff(see some of your examples on down your page), so we have to be made rightious by a sacrifice of a worthy abosolutely sinless man(Christ)."

------ But you are getting ahead of yourself mate. You are walking before you crawl. With the exceptions of 2 ancient books written 300 and 30 years after the supposed deaths of the major players in the two "big" religions, there is no proof of any deity whatsoever. Both Christianity and Islam rely on "closed" books. In other words, all of the miracles and all that are chronicled in the Bible and Qur'an can no longer be added to. If some christian scholar was to find a gospel of Jesus, it could not be added to the bible because it is closed.
Why does the Christian god go on a 2,010 year vacation? Why does he not perform the most magical acts described in the Bible any more? Why can I not talk to YHWH via a burning bush?

------------>"so we have to be made rightious by a sacrifice of a worthy abosolutely sinless man(Christ)"
------But therein lies the problem mate!!! You've have gone to great lengths to tell me that God (YHWH) is one, but he is 3 for us, but he is still One. Therefore if he is still one, the Christ fellow is in no way "sinless". Heck man, he planned it all if he is indeed the One god! Again, he is committing suicide to himself to pay for the rules that He himself made, to pay for the sins that he himself made?????

------------------> "Then with that firm belief,faith, and obedience, we actually become the rightiousness of God in His sight."
-----I don't suppose you have heard the saying "Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power but absolute power is corrupt only in the hands of the absolutley faithful."?

--------------->"Hope to continue at a later time. Peace"
--------As do I mate!

 

[OaklandReb]

---> I'm glad you don't dismiss it. My question is, how can you stomach it?
I notice that you have no time for the "baby" Abrahamic religion (that is to say, by far the youngest), Islam. I am equally as disgusted as you about parts of the Islamic religion, but you seems to turn a blind eye to the absolutely stunning likenesses of the god of the OT (YHWH) and the god of Islam (Allah) whom I view as exactly the same but going by different names. Whereas you have ever so rightfully pointed out "conversion by the sword", you seem to not mind or care that, that is what old YHWH did to entire civilisations in the OT! All for opposing the Israeli's. Now religious people have said that "God" loves all of his creature.... yet when the OT YHWH wipes out entire civilisations, turns one of his follower's wife into a pillar of salt, and condones death to those who don't observe the sabbath day, I just fail to see that love that they talk about.

---->"God is much bigger than you or I can imagine."
Again, I understand where you are coming from with this argument, but I still cannot do anything else than view this as a cop-out. A reason to rejoice in ignorace, if I may be so bold to say. I am a curious person by nature. I enjoy learning, and I follow Socrates' advice to a "t" (Question everything!).
I have done what Thomas Jefferson, who is probably the greatest President our country has ever seen, suggested we do. ("Question boldly even the existence of a god.") I am sorry, but I cannot accept this argument of yours. Such a jealous god would want to be known. He would deliberately leave traces so others could follow him.
Question: If a god does truly exist, what if it turns out that the god isn't Yahweh? What if it turns out that it is Baal, who is equally as jealous as Yahweh? What then? Wouldn't he be horribly angry at those who have worshiped YHWH all of their lives?

------>"God does not send anyone to hell, man can choose to go there .....or not."
--All the while, he was the one who created it. At any given second, there are countless people having sex with married men/women, fighting, killing each other, stealing, blowing things up... think about it, we were fashioned in his image according to the Bible, and those things are exactly what we like to watch on T.V. God is the ultimate reality T.V. junkie and has some pretty violent tastes.

------->"I would ask that you look up that book by Kenyon though."
I'm still looking for it mate. The local library doesn't have it though. I will see if the library on campuse has it. I will inquire of my nephew on that.

 

[drreb]

Faith is a part of my life and I use science and logic daily. You seem like a man with serious questions about who God really is and how He can be what He is. Let me see if I can go at this on a different track. God did leave "tracks" here on earth in both written and spoken history. You seem concerned that God would not "step in and solve" problems of man since He is omnipotent and omniscient. Well, let me assure you that He is both and there is no contraindication to either. God`s relationship with Abraham and His relationship with you are different in several ways. Abraham believed that there was God and he followed His direction. A nation was produced that was a chosen people to teach others on earth about who God was. These people didn`t do as they were told and to deliberately disobey God is called "sin" and to continue to do this is called "rebellion". These people were punished when they knowingly did things contrary to God`s direction. Here is the place to see God`s anger but after the death of Christ, there is no more anger....it was all expended. God is a God of love and would prefer to see all men following His wishes as written in the New Covanent. Man has free will to do or not do God`s wishes, God will not "make" anyone love Him. But He will give you the opportunity to love Him and then reap the benifits. Ah, that old gift of free will. Dangerous gift....very dangerous, especially if used the wrong way. You have the power to rob a bank but if you do, you reap the punishment for using that power the wrong way. Loving someone means nothing unless there is the option of not loving.

 

[OaklandReb]

---> "God did leave "tracks" here on earth in both written and spoken history."

Response: If you are going to insist on the bible being the only truth, you don't have much proof at all mate. Hundreds of thousands of deities had the same thing happen to them that you claim happened to Jesus Christ. Christ's story as detailed in the NT seems to be a thievery of the stories of Krishna or Mithra. ---For instance, Krishna in Hinduism preceded Christ by 1,000 years. He was born to a virgin, was a carpenter, was baptized in a river and died to save his followers.
---Same thing for the Persian god Mithra that I already mentioned to you but you seemingly ignored. He peceded Christ by 600 years. He was born on December 25th, performed numerous miracles, was resurrected on the 3rd day of his death, and was known as "The Lamb" and "the way, the truth, and the light.".

-----> "Well, let me assure you that He is both and there is no contraindication to either."
---It most certainly is a contradiction. You've side-stepped what I have said or ignored it without refuting it. Refute it and I will take your word for it. As I say, If your god YHWH is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means that he is not omnipotent.

-----> "Abraham believed that there was God and he followed His direction."
By very nearly killing his son. Why did YHWH have an angel step in at the last second? Seems a very sick and perverted act to have a follower go through to me.

------>"Here is the place to see God`s anger but after the death of Christ, there is no more anger....it was all expended."
--- Yet again mate, for the 5th time or so, YHWH sacrificing himself to himself to make YHWH's own anger go away TO HIS OWN RULES THAT HE SET is hardly any form of reasoning at all.

-------> Mate, I very much appreciate you taking your valuable time out of your day to attempt to answer my queries, but if you aren't going to read all that I write and instead choose to selectively answer only a bit of what I wrote and "stonewall" me on the rest, I'd really rather you not bother yourself with replying. Nearly all that you wrote in your most recent response is stuff that I have already addressed and you seemingly:
1. Did not read.
2. Read, but only a wee bit of it.
3. Read what I wrote, but found the vast majority of it contradictory to your views and as a means of insulating yourself from what I wrote actually reaching your mind, chose to repeat and repeat again the main, New Testament talking points of Christianity since it's "Renaissance" in the late 1800's.

Again, I thank you for your time and responses, but if you can't be arsed to read all that wrote, much of which addresses that which you want to repeat to me thinking that I have not already read it, please save your valuable time for your patients. I hope I haven't offended you, and am terribly sorry if I have, but what I have seen is so very typical of so many in this state. They hear me, but they don't listen. They ignore nearly all of what I say, and address 5% of what I said.

Good day/evening to ya mate.

 

[drreb]

I will agree with you here. If you remember, I simply answered your first post after it looked as though there would be no one to reply. I am not an evangelist, minister, or an apologist. I am simply a man who has placed his faith in God. The book I suggested to answwer many of the questions(most all of us have asked them at one time or another) is "The Father and His Family". You will not find it in the campus bookstore, but if you look on Amazon.com you will find it. Shouldn`t cost more than $8-$9 and will give you a basis for study.
I`ll leave you now but if you honestly seek, you will find. As I sdaid earlier, this is a discussion best held in person rather on an internet board due to time. I have not triued to ignore any of your questions, it is just that I have a busy medical practice and during the day I have certain constraints on my time. Keep an open mind and be honest with yourself about all this and the Truth will become evident. Peace, doc

 

[OaklandReb]

Ok, thanks mate.

When I get my hands on that book and have read it, I will get back to you on it.
I thank you for posting (as always) and taking your time to do what you have done.

All the best to you and yours!

 

[rebelmatt79]

I would like to thank you both for responding to each other. Keep it going.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[Mav....]

I believe in the Rebels!!

This post was edited on 7/17 9:58 PM by maverick2

 

[THOTH]

religion is a touchy subject. As an evangelical Christian it is impossible for me to rationalize the epiphany aspect of my faith to a non-believer. Many atheist challenge Christians faith by demanding proof of God's existence. The proof of God's existence is most evident in this epiphany...as in being born again. We know God exist because he is within us.
Two of the most famous atheist advocates are Michael Onfray and Christopher Hitchens. Both are also Marxist incidentally enough. Onfray even supported France's Communist party. The Atheist Manifesto list crimes committed in the name of religion, but failed to grasp the paradox of proclaiming religion's sin while advocating the political doctrines of Joesph Stalin and Mao Zedong. Stalin murdered at least 20 million and China perhaps 50 million in the name of atheism.
I'm not proclaiming all atheist as evil, not at all. The point is humans possess a soul and therefore must seek guidance for this soul. Prominent athiest such as Onfray, Hitchens, or Stalin eliminated gods from the human rationale only to replace it with a secular god...the state. Blind faith in organize religion has been replaced by blind faith in something else such as a utopia based on "reason". Many are skeptical of religion, but are also most docile towards state-ism. "Free thinking" can certainly exist within the confines of religion as well as the parameter of politics.
Because we all possess a soul, one must have an archetype ideal on which to develop a bedrock of principles based on truth. Truth must have a source in so much as if make it up as we go, then it can't be verifiable true.
There is great wisdom in the realization that we know very little, thus God should always be with us.

 

[OaklandReb]

Re: Christian Atheist here.

@ Maverick2: Christian Atheist, mate?
Might I inquire as to why you agree that YHWH doesn't exist, but you follow his hippy-half's moral teachings?
Let me guess, it's the big "A" word, isn't is?

 

[OaklandReb]

@THOTH: (responding to 1st paragraph)
Yes, I've heard that before, but what is it exactly that makes you so sure?
My good friend DocReb pointed out that his faith was rock-solid because of a personal experience. I assume it's something of the same thing?

I really doubt that the two of those blokes being marxist has anything to do with their atheism. The most well-known atheist I know is the honourable Professor of biology, Richard Dawkins. He is no marxist. While you have a point on Stalin, and while I think you pulled that Chinese number from your arse (can you post a link confirming that number?), none of those can compare with Christianity's bloody history, or indeed the deaths in the name of all 3 of the Abrahamic deities combined. I'd advise you to look at your Old Testament mate.
Also, the most well-known "evil" git in the world was a known Catholic. I am talking about Adolf Hitler of course. Timothy McVeigh was also a well-known Christian and I won't expound on him. Perhaps the most well-known local example of Christian intolerance was the kkk in the latter 1800's and really up until 1970.

(responding to 3rd paragraph) I'm afraid you'll have to prove that a soul exists before I believe it. You simply stating it doesn't count as proof, mate.

I see that your posts has a lot of the "god of the gaps" arguments. That is not surprising, seeing as how it is as old as religion. (That is to say, if something doesn't have an obvious answer, simply insert the deity of your choice.)

Many thanks to all the new posters.

 

[ozarkrebel]

Sounds like you are full Gospel there drreb

 

[ozarkrebel]

I like the writings of Kenyon. I also like the books written by Kenneth E. Hagin. It was Hagins teachings that I was told to follow when praying about things.

 

[drreb]

Hagin is very good, as is Kenyon, Tozer, and Monroe. I always try to read with a Bible nearby to cobnfirm the writers. All these(and others) stick withe the written Word. "To all is given a measure of faith", but I think we are to read and pray to build on that gift.

 

[THOTH]

***First I didn't pull the Chinese mass deaths out of thin air ( or my bum). I need not provide a link....the burden of proof isn't mine. Wikipedia cites at least 3 different sources for example.

***second Hitler wasn't a devote Catholic and The Nazi doctrine wasn't compatible with Christian ideals. Government did hijack religion...not vise versa as many secularist proclaim. Those who opposed the state's religion( Reich Church) were imprisoned and killed. Dachau concentration camp (I visited there) had a separate barracks for Christian clergy. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is perhaps the most famous of many Christian martyrs who gave their lives for their beliefs. Besides the Jewish faith, Jehovah's Witnesses were also targeted for complete elimination.
You do know that only about half of those murdered by the Nazis were Jews right?
*** Hitler was not even the 20th century's biggest villain. My vote would be Joesph Stalin. He murdered and imprisoned more people. He and his protegees was the primary cause of the Cold War, where much of the world including Easter Europe was enslaved by oppressive government. I personally walked in the tank tracks in Prague where Soviet troops/ Stalin protegees told the Czech people to "shut up". The Prague Spring ended in August of 1968.
*** The KKK and Christianity? Fredrick Douglas, WEB Dubois, and Martin Luther King jr, all spoke out against the klan and are recognized as Anglican saints. Anti-slavery movements were also historically grounded in Christian sentiment. The REVEREND Martin Luther King was hardly the only Christian involved in the Civil Rights movement.
*** It isn't the Catholic Church, nor the Southern Baptist Convention, nor the Mormons who promote abortion on demand now is it? Since Roe V Wade millions of unwanted babies have been murdered...some think about 40 million...and Christians are about the only ones who express dismay.
secular humanist tend to be "pro-choice". The pro-abortion lobby tends to utilize the same "useless eater" logic that Hitler did in the 1930's.
This post was edited on 7/14 9:14 PM by THOTH
This post was edited on 7/14 9:20 PM by THOTH

 

[THOTH]

" I'm afraid you'll have to prove that a soul exists before I believe it. You simply stating it doesn't count as proof, mate. "
There a rudimentary elements of the human conscience which transcends the ages and distance. If one should look at ancient civilizations separated from each other, the concept of the soul exist.
{{{Did ancient Egyptians 3000 BC believe in the soul? Yes they did...I'm looking a reproduction of an papyrus right now of the weighing of the soul.
{{{ 700 BC in Greece, Homer's Odyssey tells of Odysseus going into Hades and seeing the souls of his mother, Achilles, Tereasus, and others.
{{{ until AD 313 The Romans too believed in an afterlife and a religion similar to the Greeks.
{{{ AD 1000 the Mayans believed in an underworld Sebulba, and a pantheon of gods/goddesses
{{{ Ancient Iraqi civilizations had thier religions
{{{ Zoroastrianism in ancient Iran
{{{ In Asia there is the concept of reincarnation. If there is no soul, there can be no reincarnation.

{{{ Buddism promotes karma.....................

{{{ In Hawaii today many still believe in Pele...the Volcano goddess.
{{{ Sub-Saharan Africa has its indigenous religions
{{{ same with the Aborigines of Australia
{{{ Native Americas/First Nation peoples too have some rich religious traditions.
It would seem that God, gods, the afterlife, and the soul transcends time, culture, race, language, and geography.
It seems that humans came into this world instinctively knowing that he/she possesses a soul.
==clearly god was never invented, atheism was the invention===
In a modern/contemporary sense how would an atheist explain music or art? If he had no soul, then why would Beethoven compose the 9th symphony? Why would a modern singer write a song about lost love? Why do grown people cry in movie theaters ? Why would we need an art gallery? Art serves no purpose in physical evolution. Art and music are proof that we do possess a soul, as pure evolutionary science cannot assign a purpose for such frivolous pursuits.
This post was edited on 7/14 10:19 PM by THOTH
This post was edited on 7/14 10:20 PM by THOTH
This post was edited on 7/14 10:21 PM by THOTH

 

[OaklandReb]

@THOTH:
-#1 Paragraph: Actually the burden of proof is on you mate, you made the claim, you have to back it up. I'm not necessarily disagreeing that the Chinese didn't do that, rather I think you have bloated the number a wee bit. Seeing as how the Chinese remain under State-run supervision still, I doubt we will know the exact number until the current regime falls. Still though mate, no excuse to try to not back up what you claim. That is rule #1 in debating etiquette.

-#2: Actually mate, Hitler did subscribe to the Christian religion via "Positive Christianity". I will be providing a link for you to see at the bottom. Devout or not, the fact remains that Hitler was a Christian. There are several points to be made about this and I will include a quote to even further back up my points:

---1A.If Adolf Hitler was an atheist, why did he keep saying that he believed in God, had faith in God, and was convinced that he was doing God's work? Adolf Hitler was not just certain that his attacks on Jews were divinely mandated, but also his efforts to clamp down on society by restoring traditional morality. Christian apologists only seem to claim that Hitler was an atheist because they cannot handle the idea that a Christian theist would cause so much evil in the name of their God.
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator". - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

---2A. If Adolf Hitler's political and social policies were a product of atheism and secularism, why did he consistently say that religious faith was necessary for morality? Why did Hitler insist that faith is one of the most important things in life? Adolf Hitler's own words make it clear that he was convinced of the importance and necessity of religious faith - not at all unlike the conviction of conservative Christians today.
"For the masses of the people, especially faith is absolutely the only basis of a moral outlook on life. The various substitutes that have been offered have not shown any results that might warrant us in thinking that they might usefully replace the existing denominations. ..." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

---3A. Adolf Hitler is often used as an example of what happens to a society when traditional Christian moral and social values are abandoned. In reality, one of the reasons why Hitler was so popular with conservative Christians in Germany was precisely because he promised to restore traditional morality. He opposed abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and just about everything else conservative Christians complained were ruining modern Germany.
"Woman's world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men." - Adolf Hitler, quoted in Lucy Komisar, The New Feminism

---4A. Despite how often Christian apologists try to argue that Adolf Hitler is an example of the evil caused by atheism and secularism, the truth is that Hitler often proclaimed his own Christianity, how much he valued Christianity, how important Christianity was to his life, and even how much he was personally inspired by Jesus - his "Lord and Savior." There is plenty of evidence that he was critical of Christian churches for seeking independence from the state, but his vision of "Positive Christianity" was significant to him.
----#1AB: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so. - Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941
----#2AB: "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter." - Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922


-#3 Paragraph: I'm in agreement 110% with you on that one mate. However, he did not murder in the name of atheism and secularism, as you seem to be trying to link.

-#4: Yes mate, the kkk and Christianity. Even to this day they bang on about restoring christian ideals and whatnot to this nation. Perhaps you could tell me what the great MLK and WEB Dubois and Frederick Douglas have to do with the kkk and it's roots that it claims are christian? I certainly never said anything about the 3 most excellent men you listed being in the kkk. You kinda counfuse me here, mate. In closing of this #4 refutation, I might mention that yes, you are correct. The abolitionist movement did have grounding in the christian ideology. I will point out though that the same can be said for the pro-slavery movement back then in the south. Rather a weak comeback here, mate.

-#5: Not all mate, no. Some do. My wife is a staunch Catholic who opposes abortion, but she does have several friends in the church who are pro-choice.
I would reckon the same can be said for all denominations except perhaps the Baptists. As I consider mormanism as I do scientologists (both are cults in my opinion), there is no point in pointing them out.
As such that I have just pointed out, your exact quote of "tend" is rather weak. How do you know such? Can you provide a link with stats on such?

Thanks for the conversation mate, and I am quite enjoying the discussion/debate.

Don't forget to look at the link at bottom of the post!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

 

[OaklandReb]

@THOTH: While I very much appreciate the research you have done ( *claps for THOTH* ) , I am afraid what the ancients believed does not qualify as proof. Until the 1700's at least 90% of the population was illiterate due to the form of governments they had. (Monarchy)
- (regarding "Instinctively knowing") I am afraid that still does not count as proof mate. Deities are quite handy, I'll make no bones about it. No doubt it is comforting to think that a deity or whatever is watching over you and listening to what you say to him/her in your head. It is brilliance, no doubt about it and seeing as how it provides comfort to think such, that would explain it's longevity.

--(regarding "clearly god was never invented, atheism was the invention"
Since Atheism is simply the absence of belief in the supernatural your question should probably be turned around. The absence of belief in the supernatural would logically precede a belief in the supernatural. Therefore it would be more logical to ask, "Who invented gods?" It was probably the first hominid who fell to his knees in shock, fear and awe, wondering how he could somehow appease the higher power that caused the lightening strike that killed his companion.
Now mate, I am not sure if you believe in the whole "Adam and Eve" biblical story, but many Christians I know are almost positive that the Neanderthal preceded Adam and Eve/Lilith. There is ample abundance for the Neanderthal after all, and while the Adam and Eve/Lilith story is amusing, I would have to ask your opinion on something: According to your held beliefs, are the Neanderthals in heaven or hell?

-Regarding the music/art bit: Quite simple mate! As there are about 1.1 billion of us nonbelievers out there (see link at the bottom), we use the time that would otherwise be using sitting in a tax-exempt building singing and talking to the insides of out heads to compose music or create art.
Mind you I like the artists that called themselves religious. Ave Maria is something that puts me at ease every time I hear it.
Love is easily explained bu our human pheromones. See this link for further details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheromone
I might ask you though, why is it that the people who identify as being religious have the higher divorce rate, particularly here in the US?

lol, I commend you on some very ingenious replies, and encourage you to "KBO" (Churchill's quote, "Keep Buggering On") THOTH, as I am quite enjoying this. I hope you are as well. I like to learn something new every day, and your previous post has taught me something. Thanks mate!

Adherants of religion/nonreligion

 

[rebelmatt79]

Oakland
After reading all of your responses, it has become obvious to that try to present yourself as having an "open mind". This however is obviously a front your putting up. If you don't believe in faith, or even a soul, then you are set in your beliefs
or lack thereof.Hitler was a christian? Oakland, I'm Tiger Woods. You should have left your rudeness back across the pond. I will continue to pray for your salvation.
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]

 

[OaklandReb]

I have no front, rebelmatt79.
I truly would like to see evidence to the contrary of that of which I currently see.

Yes, Hitler was a Christian. I have provided ample evidence of that and if you think he wasn't feel free to prove otherwise.

I'm not being rude at all, I am having a discussion/debate on the subject of deities. For the life of me I will never understand why so many of my fellow Americans think that faith is exempt from questioning and/or scrutinization. It's not.
I think questioning one's faith can be a strengthening thing even.

As for your 2nd to last comment, you should really get out and see the world, mate. If you think I am being rude, you are being a bit daft. Rude would be a militant atheist, which I most certainly am not. I have openly admitted that I would like to be able to believe, but cannot bring myself to do so with no evidence. I post directly and to the point and make no bones about it.
I see no evidence of a soul existing. I'm hoping someone can prove me wrong. THOTH made an exemplary try of it, but it was rather easy to refute.

In ending, one does not believe in faith, rebelmatt79, one believes in a deity.

This post was edited on 7/15 2:36 PM by OaklandReb

 

[drreb]

Oakland,
What evidence would you accept as proof of God`s existence and what proof would you need to believe in a soul? I guess what I am asking is, does the evidence need to be "first hand" or will say, statistical or genetic evidence do?
Was Hitler a Christian? Or did Hitler "profess" to be a Christian? If the definition of a follower of Christ is one who follows His commandments, then, no Hitler was not a Christian. "This one commandment I leave you. That you love one another even as I have loved you".....not quite what Hitler had in mind? One can profess to be anything....even a student from the UK. Maybe they are what they say they are and then maybe they are not! You will know a tree by its fruit, not by what someone calls it.

 

[rebelled]

What evidence do you have seems a more logical question... Empirical evidence.

Hitler's personal beliefs *scratches head to the relevance* hardly matters if he put on a pretense and the Christians followed, they still condoned the acts. At the end of the war Catholics were responsible for hiding plenty of the Nazi atrocities. How does this differ from what "the church" has always done? (an even better question.) Christian history is full of genocide and horrid deeds with or without Hitlers involvement.

Do you really need to start attacking someone personally just because he made a better point than you?? (prolly, but that's also a Christian trait.)
This post was edited on 7/15 8:27 PM by rebelled

 

[OaklandReb]

Welcome back Doc! ----> :cheers: (bud light)

The proof for your God's existence is rather simple old chap.
I hear all the time that "God changed my life." and "God told me to do this or that." or "God came to me and told me this in answer to my prayer."
So I suppose that the best proof would be to hear this God character in my head.
Most Christians say they know YHWH exists because of a personal experience. They never bother to elaborate on what exactly it was though. As for the soul, I doubt it is possible for either of us to truly know if a soul exists.
I understand where you are coming from in believing in a soul, as it comes with the religious territory.

Hitler was a Christian. It is understandable that you would not like to have him associated with Christianity, but the facts are there. I have provided you and others ample evidence of this.

Yes, the love thou neighbour commandment is a good one, you'll get no argument from me on that one mate.

Erm, not quite sure what you mean about the UK student mate. (?)
Can you elaborate?


Welcome Rebelled!
What about yourself? Are you a believer or an infidel?

This post was edited on 7/15 9:34 PM by OaklandReb

 

[rebelled]

At one time a believer. I started to question the validity of my faith many years back and research into it only quickened my disassociation really.

I was really just passing through this site... I like to check message boards and your subject caught my eye. I don't find many people that share my views around here so I thought, why not.

I've never met a brit... I'm not used to some of the words you use... like "daft" lol. Anyway, a lot of what you say makes sense to me.

Christianity does seem to have many fallacies. Fallacies that constituents often try to forget or change so that the church's morality appears unstained. This is hardly even close to the truth. As I see it Christianity has caused as much or more suffering than any other regime in history.

Thanx for the welcome btw!
This post was edited on 7/15 10:39 PM by rebelled
This post was edited on 7/15 10:39 PM by rebelled

 

[rebelled]

You know I may be looking at this wrong, but doesn't the bible have many acts in it that resemble Hitlers actions?

How many times has god killed whole groups of people because of some "transgressions"? chauvinism and slavery also in the bible along with countless wars. (not to mention all the wars that have been in gods name). Seems to me with all the violence and hatred on "gods creation", Hitler would of been his kinda man. Might wanna just elevate him to Sainthood. After all what happens is god's will... and god likes killing.

But then again you could try preying to jesus, mary, peter... or any of the other deities in that "monotheistic" religion, maybe they will save you from YHWH's wrath.

The question I ended up posing to myself was, "if there is a god would I even follow his sadistic will?" (no)

I'm not worried as far as I can tell god is just the latest circus in a long line of false religions. I mean after all, if all the religions before christianity were wrong... how does this one offer anything any different?

It's actually refreshing for me to see someone with a different opinion on this subject tell it so ordered. Odd the responses dipped into attacking your "rudeness" and personal claims instead of refuting your points... maybe they can't idk. I'm not from MS either. I'm from the great state of TN. But sadly no one here is anymore respectful of an open mind .
This post was edited on 7/16 2:49 PM by rebelled

 

[THOTH]

Sure I enjoy good conversation.

As a matter of fact, differing points of view are healthy and when we all agree on everything, then we are doomed.
According to the evangelical definition of "Christian", Adolf Hitler was not one. In a baptist sense, to call oneself a christian, a person must be born again. The only way I can think of that Hitler could have been saved was if he and Eva Braun got on their knees in that ill fated bunker in 1945 and begged God's forgiveness and asked Jesus to come into their lives and lead them. In some faiths one might be sprinkled with water as a baby then can proclaimed himself a christian. Not by the baptist faith I grew up in. In other words, calling yourself a church member makes not one a christian.
Yes, I have read up on the Reich church and no...that doesn't count against christianity. Also since Christians also died in the camps, this collective guilt for the Jewish holocaust is nonsense.
This post was edited on 7/17 12:18 PM by THOTH