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Do you believe in a deity?

Oakland, On thr Hitler subject....I have a tree in my back yard that I get apples from each year. If I pain a sign on it that says PEACH TREE, does that make it a peach tree? Hitler was what he was and that speaks for itsself much more than what he said he was. No matter what he said he was.
Now for a proof of God? I have a friend who is an archeologist and goes aroud digging up stuff and searching for things. When he is in a remote desert with no human villages or roads for hundreds of miles and he unearths some oblong, formed clay structures that are open on one end and closed on the other, with smmoth edges and designs on the sides....he will conclude that someone made the pot and that humans were once there. We have no evidence that structures such as these can be made without some sort of knowledge of pottery and intelligence to make them. One could sit beside a clay pit for years waiting for a clay pot to form by "evolution" of the clay, and it just wouldn`t happen. Anyone in the field of archeology would agree that finding pottery with complex shapes is evidence of human presence at one time or another. Do you agree?
Now look at the most "simple" one celled animal and consider how much more complex a living cell is that a clay pot. One of the most simple bacteria, Mycoplasma genitalium has but one chromosome and a cell membrane, but lacks a cell wall. It has the smallest genome of any self-replicating organism. Only has 470 genes and the average protien coded for by thses genes contains 347 aminoacids. The probability of forming by random, one such average sized protien molecule containing the amino acid residues in a required sequence is only 1/10 to the 451 power. Since any statistical math major will tell you that anything with a probability of 1/10 to the 50 is a statistical impossibility, I just have to say that scientifically, making these "simple one celled organisms"( as evolutionists call them) and then having them actually have "life" is the product of an intelligence so far superior to anything man can dream of is real.
In my mind, which may or may not be cluttered at all times, atheism and evolution are both cop-outs. We won`t even go into the biochemical statistical probabilities with carbon and organic ooze life origins, because the numbers just get worse for the evolutionists there. We need not ply the laws of thermodynamics `cause that is even more clear on the subject. You tell me that you don`t think a God could be immutable, OK. Let`s just say He is omnipotent, omipresent, omniscient, and unerringly just. That is probaly someone with whom you might want to get to know on a personal basis, just for selfish reasons. Whatever. I do know this though......He loves you and He is knowledgable enough to make that one celled life form discussed above that Darwin nor Dawkins even come close to understanding. He can be known and knowing Him is a good thing. One sure way not to ever know Him is to exclude Him as being even possible, but then you must explain how that little mycoplasma got here without Him and that really is impossible.
 
rebelled, You questioned the validity of your faith or your religion? Religion is man`s attempt to reach God, and that will not nor has never worked. Faith is a different matter and is not really associated with a particular denomination. If I may ask, what was your faith and what was the research that removed it?
I gues what I am getting to is, people have faith and belief in many things, so I`m not sure what your "faith" was in. If you could, clear that up for me.
 
Some more thoughts on Hitler the "Christian."
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First like I said before different points of view are great. It was Herodotus who proclaimed ...." It is important that many views be expressed, how else can the best be selected"?

Concerning the term "Christian" I can recite Socrates who said "The first step in any discussion is definition". In the previous post I gave my definition of a Christian...one is born again through the Holy Spirit after repenting. ( typical Southern Baptist).

The fact that Hitler's government hijacked the religion of Germany, and not religion hijacking the government proves the American Founding Fathers correct. The ACLU and others on the political Left will have one believe that "separation of church and state" is primarily intended to protect government from overbearing religion. It can certain provide that function, but primarily "separation of church & state" has meant protecting RELIGION from the government. Thomas Jefferson is frequently quoted from his letter to the Danbury Baptist. That's right...BAPTIST !
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The First Amendment reads...."Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
The Left's attempts to secularize our nation violates that last part...."free exercise thereof ". For example.... the bans on voluntary school prayers violates the First Amendment.
Jefferson didn't want a secular society he wanted a separation of church and state....which we have and always have had. It's a non-issue !
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. The Pope doesn't select the US president and the US congress is not consulted when a new Pope is ordained. Through-out history kings have been under the authority of religious leaders and religious leaders have been under the thumbs of governments. Case is point is Martin Luther and the Diet of Worms. Charles V the Holy Roman Emperor tried Luther for religious heresy.
For many on American left, Karl Marx( not Jefferson) sums it up and is their inspiration ....The following is Karl Marx issuing marching orders....
"The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

Does that not sound just like a 21'st century atheist activist?
 
My goodness, rebelled.

@ Whichever poster it was that accused me of being rude: When I said over-the-top militant atheist, it seems as though rebelled fits that bill nicely!
 
@Doc: You are stonewalling again mate. I have provided valid evidence that one of the biggest monsters in the 20th century was a Christian. I know that is not a very nice thing to be aware of, but it is what it is.

I would agree. However, that still in no way provides evidence for the God chap. :)

LOL, ah, we are going to get into the old Intelligent Design vs Big Bang/Evolution chat are we now mate? Right-o then mate, right-o, but let's start it on Monday. It is the weekend after all old chap!
(I am looking forward to responding to your 2nd Law of Thermodynamics error.)

Cheers mate!
 
@ THOTH: May I inquire as to what it is you are banging on about mate?
In your 1st sentence, you talk about Hitler's gov't and it's actions against the Lutherian and Catholic and pagan religions of Germany, then you rabbit on about separation of church and state in the US. Are we now just going to rant, mate?
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@ "the Doc" I grew up Baptist impressed into me by my parents and grandparents. Early though I started to question some "claims". In high school (quite awhile back now) I started attending church services of friends, girlfriends of other "faiths" (really just different beliefs). as I found new truths in other denominations that differed from my own (i.e. Church of Christ, seventh day advents, Catholic, ect) i also found people could believe crazy things.

I developed a love for history at this point too that i carried into college and began to look into the history of religion in general. At that point i found there was a lot I just didn't know about Christianity and religion in general. I realized most of what I had been taught is propaganda devised as a means of controlling the masses just as it has been for many other religions. It's not that one religion is more right than another but that they are all there for the same reason, now and throughout history.
This post was edited on 7/17 5:36 PM by rebelled
 
Whomever you is, we dont neet your kind here. Astheists aint needed specially foreners. even tho i aint from missisippi i'm a god fearin man. theres plenty good baptists in michigan!!!

jaybro37
 
"Are we now just going to rant, mate? '
OaklandReb...I'm not ranted.
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I am however gobsmacked....Not sure what I'm talking about? But it's your thread, your topic,...you are the OP.
Perhaps you were simply being cheeky when you said you were enjoying this conversation? If so, then cheers.
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This post was edited on 7/18 10:55 PM by THOTH
 
Oakland, you are the smartest being on the planet. You have all the answers already, so why are you on here looking for them? Good luck in your life on this earth mate. I hope you will listen to that voice in your head and that tugging in your heart one day. The voice in your head sounds like your own by the way, good and evil. Without Jesus in your heart you can't tell which one to listen too.

Trully Repent, Trully Accept, and you will have eternal life!

Christian, Muslim, Goat Worshiper...... Religion. It means nothing. That is the real answer you and others don't seem to get.
 
@rebelmatt79: In no way am I the smartest being on the planet, nor would I ever claim such rubbish. I also do not have all the answers, rather I just have answers to the claims put forth thus far.
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I thank you for the luck in life. I also wish you the very same.
It is quite nice to see such a civil conversation between us. If you look in the Colonel's forum, you will notice that a fundie christian called Alex seems to have had a gnat violate his oatmeal or something.
So again, I thank you for the civility. I know some of the stuff I post can seem annoying at times, but if nothing else, I am only making you lot's faith ever stronger by you all examining some possibly tough questions.

Does it now? So the voice is your own?
Quite interesting mate, thanks for that info.

Last bit noted mate! Have an excellent day.
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@THOTH's last reply:
Yes mate, I know what the OP is about, but you rather confused me with your last post. You post something about the nazi's, then proceed down completely the other path. It was interesting, but rather different.

lol, No mate, in no way was I being cheeky. I truly am enjoying this conversation.
I normally post on an international forum that discusses things involving deities and their existence or not, but this much-closer-to-home conversation is truly more enjoyable.

Here's hoping that you had an excellent weekend! :cheers: (Guinness beer)
 
@ Doc's last long post:
Again mate, if you don't want to face the fact that Hitler used "Positive Christianity" in his monstrous ambitions, that's your deal, mate.

May I inquire as to how you think atheism and evolution are cop-outs?
Also, would you consider yourself an atheist in regards to Allah, Elohim, Thor, Odin, Mithra and the IPU's existence? Eh? What's that mate? You do?????
Why is that? I just go one step farther mate.
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I will not agree that YHWH is the "3 O's" as I have already dealt with that. Stonewalling again mate, stonewalling....

Knowing him is a good thing? I suppose it is.
I just can't get my head around why exactly it is that you know, you just know that YHWH is the one true way, yet you don't bother considering that any number of other gods could fit just as well. (Well, in a believer's sense of the world anyway.)

lol, Some things may well possibly be impossible, but I don't see it that way.
I see it has we don't know yet, but we will in the (possibly near) future.
Impossible today is the possible of tomorrow.
Heck, look at what it is we are typing on. Do you think the Romans of 2000 CE would have thought us discussing this as we are possible back then?

I respect your mindset of just throwing in the towel and saying "God did it.", but I do not share that mindset. It is the pinnacle of cop-outs in my humblest of opinions. As one who cares for others, it does slightly surprise me that you do throw in the towel as such. Take cancer for instance, as both a religious man and a doctor, are you content to just say "I'm sorry, sir or madam, but the cancer your husband/son/daughter/whomever has is simply God's will and I can do nothing else.". I sure would not be. I would (and do, even though I am no Doc) want to beat cancer.
 
Al right, I'll recap my points.
Oakland Reb stated= Hitler was a Christian. So I respond that= no, Hitler was not a Christian by my definition. I then give my subjective definition of what a Christian supposedly entails.
In this Hitler was or wasn't debate there is a greater point to be made. I do not anticipate that we are discussing this for purely trivial reasons.

Usually when one proclaims "Hitler was a Christian" the conjecture goes..." religion is bad, that's why we have separation of church and state. This needs to be a secular country"...in other words blaming Christianity for the Third Reich.
I jumped one step ahead in the discussion by proclaiming freedom of religion and addressing church/state issues. Topics such as this always seem to digress to church and state.
 
I see. As long as we are going by your definitions, I reckon that's fair enough.

Still though, I don't quite understand why when you are presented with facts, including quotes from the monster himself, that you stick with your definition.

It is not my intent to say religion is bad. Nor do I plan on having Hitler as the wee mascot for Christianity in an attempt to bastardize Christianity.
Quite the contrary mate. You have attempted to paint all atheists as Stalins and Hitlers when such is not the case. Sure Stalin was a bigger monster than Hitler, and Stalin was an avowed atheist. But here is where I took issue, and did some reverse form on ya: You seem to assert that because of Stalin's atheism he did what he did, which most certainly isn't the case. He did what he did because he was a power-hungry git who wanted to control all of the USSR under the guise of Marxism, which also was not the case.

My providing you facts about Hitler and his Christianity was a mere interesting fact that seems not to be well-known in these parts. I know for a fact that Jesus said "And the meek shall inherit the earth." and I am fairly certain that he was also written to have been one who favours humbleness. My mere interesting point about your fallacy about Hitler being an atheist had two points to it:

1. I wanted to make sure that you knew that your assertion was false and to make sure you had your facts straight.

2. I wanted to see if you were one of those "I'm a Christian and I am right and you are an Atheist and you are dead wrong." types who lives contrary to the Bible's (and Jesus', I suppose) outline, or, if you were one of those who were humble and were willing to admit when you are wrong.

When I am wrong, and am presented with facts that I am wrong, I admit that I was wrong.

The reasons for Separation of Church and State are not Hitler-based. Not at all.
They are Constitutionally-based, and are also based on the author of the Constitution's thoughts on the matter. He was around the Continental Congress, and was around Virginians. He knew what the people wanted and as a founder, knew what the other representatives of the state wanted as well.

Perhaps when all 9 of the Supreme Court justices are Conservative, you might have a wee chance at revoking the Separation, but that will likely not happen because they know well that Theocracies are not a good thing.

I hope I have cleared this up for you, THOTH.
 
I see. As long as we are going by your definitions, I reckon that's fair enough.

Still though, I don't quite understand why when you are presented with facts, including quotes from the monster himself, that you stick with your definition.

It is not my intent to say religion is bad. Nor do I plan on having Hitler as the wee mascot for Christianity in an attempt to bastardize Christianity.
Quite the contrary mate. You have attempted to paint all atheists as Stalins and Hitlers when such is not the case. Sure Stalin was a bigger monster than Hitler, and Stalin was an avowed atheist. But here is where I took issue, and did some reverse form on ya: You seem to assert that because of Stalin's atheism he did what he did, which most certainly isn't the case. He did what he did because he was a power-hungry git who wanted to control all of the USSR under the guise of Marxism, which also was not the case.

My providing you facts about Hitler and his Christianity was a mere interesting fact that seems not to be well-known in these parts. I know for a fact that Jesus said "And the meek shall inherit the earth." and I am fairly certain that he was also written to have been one who favours humbleness. My mere interesting point about your fallacy about Hitler being an atheist had two points to it:

1. I wanted to make sure that you knew that your assertion was false and to make sure you had your facts straight.

2. I wanted to see if you were one of those "I'm a Christian and I am right and you are an Atheist and you are dead wrong." types who lives contrary to the Bible's (and Jesus', I suppose) outline, or, if you were one of those who were humble and were willing to admit when you are wrong.

When I am wrong, and am presented with facts that I am wrong, I admit that I was wrong.

The reasons for Separation of Church and State are not Hitler-based. Not at all.
They are Constitutionally-based, and are also based on the author of the Constitution's thoughts on the matter. He was around the Continental Congress, and was around Virginians. He knew what the people wanted and as a founder, knew what the other representatives of the state wanted as well.

Perhaps when all 9 of the Supreme Court justices are Conservative, you might have a wee chance at revoking the Separation, but that will likely not happen because they know well that Theocracies are not a good thing.

I hope I have cleared this up for you, THOTH.
 
Come on now Oakland, we have to be honest in any rational discussion whether it is about God or peach trees. I certainly don`t know your definition of a Christian, but to say that Hitler was a follower of Christ is not true and you are fully aware of it. If I told you that I was Bill Gates and then I met you, you would say you don`t look like the Bill Gates I have heard of, but since you say you are him, then you must be him. I don`t have any of the attributes of Bill Gates, I don`t have the money he has, I don`t act like he acts, and I don`t look like him. Are you still going to say that I am Bill Gates? It is not what a man SAYS he is that confirms WHAT he is.
I gave you biological and statistical evidence that random chance and mutation originating and evolving advanced life forms is considered impossible mathmatically. Now you say that we might learn more one day and the statistical impossibility might no longer be true. The only way for anyone not to see intelligence and a designer in life is simple then.....if you refuse to even consider God as an option, He is not an option. I don`t know any true scientists who enter a study and then automatically exclude any possibility of certain postulates. Why would you exclude the possibility of a supreme being from ALL discussion of life and death.
Exclude other gods? Alla is a random pick from 360 or so gods that were already worshipped in Asia. Budda...a man who died and stayed dead...my advice would be not gto worship a dead man, he`s no better off than you. Same goes for other dead people.
Throw in the towel???? About what? Do you actually think God causes cancer? You come from the UK? What is the penalty for high treason in the UK? If a man commits treason in your country, then gets the death penalty, did the PM kill him? Maybe the man broke a law that has a predetermined penalty? Maybe the convicted man needs a bit of help to get out of the death penalty. Maybe even a substitute?
God is not a "mate" or a "bloke". He is bigger than you or I can comprehend. If you are a true seeker of truth and just what is out there.....go outside some night, alone, where it is quiet, sit down, look up at the heavens, and earnestly ask (out loud) if there is a God and if so, ask Him to reveal himself to you. Any earnest seeker of the truth would give this a shot.
 
You're kidding right doc? I have to admit it is possible for someone/thing or a group of something(s)/one(s) could of created all of this... however figure the statistics that any of that is possible and which one did it and what their/it's intentions are if any. suddenly evolution starts to seem more feasible. especially when there is proof of evolution yet no proof of a god.

and now suddenly not all is god's will (omni what?) come on now, you pass judgment on a poor little kid who has received cancer that your ignorance can't save... however you don't wanna blame the being who is everywhere controlling everything. do you just make this stuff up as you go or are you just that inept? Your inability to accept Hitlers association with Christianity and now you're unwilling to accept your god is just as ruthless as the old testament says. has more to do with your dilutions then any facts. just because you wanna believe something don't make it true. put that on your list of "I don't wanna believe that so imma make some stuff up" cop-outs. Your religion is responsible for more atrocities than Hitler could of ever hoped to commit... read some history and quit just pretending your religion's morality is untarnished... Holy wars, genocide and oppression are how your church came to be. I don't have to try to put a negative spin on chrstianity... it's already there.
 
@ Doc:
Hitler was a Christian. He admitted it numerous times, saw that as long as the churches didn't preach against his national socialism it was an invaluable tool in controlling the masses.
Again, I have provided you and THOTH with ample evidence that Hitler was a Christian. You both wholeheartedly reject that fact, and that is your business. Facts speak for themselves. I know it is quite the unpleasant thought (understandably so), but it is what it is.... a fact.
I'm not aware of your age, Doc, but if you can remember, the Catholic Church was quite anti-semitic until the late 1960's.

I didn't fully address your random chance bit this morning. I apologize. I will do so now. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don't interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.

Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn't need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).
Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don't state the "givens," but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with. (One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn't depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn't affect evolution in the least.)

It's not that I don't consider a god an option, rather I see the probability of a god designing the world as low. It is so very easy to say God did it, rather than researching things for ourselves. If a god or your god exists, I am confident in saying that he would whole-heartedly approve of our curiousness.
The Argument from Design is rather weak. I agree with you (as you will probably say) that evolution has some holes in it as well, but where I disagree is with the gaping craters that come with that particular pseudo-science. Most Creationists I have spoken to in my lifetime have no idea at all about the Big Bang or Natural Selection. As I say, I don't think that a Designer is impossible, rather I think the probability is low.

Can you be arsed to provide a link to your claim about Allah?
Buddhism is no religion, rather it is a lifestyle.

As for your comment about does God cause cancer, No I don't because I think that the probability of a god existing is quite low. However, if I take your view of the world, I do absolutely think YHWH causes cancer. You have already posted about predestination and free will, so from your point of view I would say yes, YHWH does cause cancer. Or, he predestined it when he hypothetically designed everything. lol, you've gotten yourself into a bit of tussle with the argument from design, mate!

The UK does not have the death penalty, as it is an ancient barbaric practice that should have already been done away with in all civilised and industrialised countries. The penalty for treason in the UK is life in prison without parole.
We had the traitors killed for the better part of the 20th century, but in 1965 it was rightfully done away with.

I will do as you suggest about looking at the stars and speaking aloud.
If anything divine happens, I will post a report.
Had you suggested this earlier, I could have done it this morning. (I was up at 4 AM.) Thanks for the suggestion, Doc.
 
Oakland and rebelled, this is Bill Gates posting now. I have decided to send each of you $1 billion dollars, tax free. Please go stand by your mail box and wait for it to get there. If I get to Oxford soon and find you standing at the post office, I`ll agree with you believing that Hitler was a Christian. Obne can say he is anything he wants, but thjat simply does not make him one. If you think Hitler was a Christian, you need to get out and meet some real Christians.
I`ll now use your own argument about never seeing God to refute His existance. Show me abiogenesis anywhere and we can converse about it.
Natural selection and mutation. Wow! Let`s see now, in a population of prehumanoids(in let`s just say Africa) that would mean that the population to get 8 humans(the number now universally known to be the gene poolthere) would mean there are 150 billion extinct (missing) links on that one continent alone. Shouldn`t be hard to locate 800-900 of them right away, huh? Again evolution is a religion for the cop outs who refuse to think there is anyone to whom they must be responsible. The evolution theory has been a proven joke now for 40 years and yet we have supposedly educated people haging in there with it. Moon=green cheese Life came from a primal ooze=joke. Primal ooze + energy = life....another joke. Show it to me! Carbon atoms arraige themselves in patterns that predispose to more and more complex molecules and life forms=joke. Show me how that happens! But then we all know that those things don`t happen in a random, natural selection, statistical, or any other manner except by the addition of "life", don`t we?
Dance all you want, but show me the begtinning, show me the transitional forms, show me macroevolution! Please.
 
It's your choice to put your head in the sand mate, I know fundamentalist sorts around here do it all the time, so do as you please. I have posted the facts about him and his Christianity, and you choose to ignore them. This is the last time I will be addressing it to you Doc, if you can't process what the man said in his speeches, his blueprint for his future (Mein Kampf) or what he said to his officers, that's your problem mate. Do as countless others in this state do and bury your head if it makes you feel better. I leave you with this:
---"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -Adolf Hitler
---"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

*chuckles at the old abiogenesis chestnut*
You creationist lot frequently confuse abiogenesis with evolution. By pointing to problems or lack of knowledge about the former, you lot think you refute the latter. So, it is important to realise that how life arose is irrelevant to the validity of evolution. It matters not in the slightest to evolution whether the first living things came about through supernatural or natural means; the evidence for the common ancestry of populations (including species) that makes it possible to infer a single phylogenetic tree of all life is still the same in either case. Once there is life -- with heritable variation -- descent is allowed to accumulate modifications -- to evolve -- and populations will unavoidably eventually split, originating new species.

Evolution is no cop-out mate. It is a theory that, as I have admitted, has holes in it..... for now. The problems with your pseudo-science are numerous.
I'll ask you this in particular: If God created the world, where was he before creation?. . . How could God have made the world without any raw material?. . . If he is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him? The two arguments I see that you are itching to use (and have used are thus:
1. Everything that had a beginning must have had a cause outside of itself.
2. Therefore, the universe had a cause outside of itself

And somehow you arrive at the conclusion that the universe's causer is an intelligent designer who exactly and only fits the description of the God of the Bible.
--Here is the problem with that:
In light of the two arguments above, you haven't established a universal designer much less an adequate conclusion. And the Bible's description of the world and the universe differs from observation. Christian Creationism even differs from the Genesis of your own Bible!
---For example, the original word for God of Genesis 1 comes from the Hebrew word "Elohim," a plural form that means "gods" ("El" means the singular God). Furthermore, Genesis 1:26 says, "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image." The "us" and "our" imply multiple agents, a huge problem with Christian creation hypothesis. Therefore, even the Biblical view does not agree with the monocentric Designer hypothesis proposed by many Christian Creationists.
This only shows that you have ideas and myths about God derived from the Bible and supported by faith. Faith depends on hope and ignorance. And faith of a Creator does not agree with the best scientific theories (including Creationism in a cheap tuxedo: ID!) about the universe. Faith in God determines nothing about nature. Consider that every mathematical equation, every single advance of science throughout human history has never required a variable of God. Even the few scientists who claim belief in God must leave their beliefs aside if they wish to perform useful and productive science.

You'll notice that I have touched on a wee bit about your post about Natural Selection and mutation, but not all of it. I shan't be posting any response to all of it until you actually read and comprehend what I have posted thus far. I get the feeling that you skim through my posts and pick out a few words and possibly a point or two and then post. I take a good bit of time to research my posts and make sure what I post isn't posted from ignorance and unsupported claims butif you aren't going to read my posts throughly ( I.E. You refusing to read the facts from the monster himself about his christiandom) I am not going to waste my time posting things you won't read. Period.
-----For biologists, there is no relevant difference between microevolution and macroevolution. Both happen in the same way and for the same reasons, so there is no real reason to differentiate them. When biologists do use different terms, it is simply for descriptive reasons. The essence of what constitutes microevolution is, for creationists, different from the essence of what constitutes macroevolution. Creationists act as if there is some magic line between microevolution and macroevolution, but no such line exists as far as science is concerned. Macroevolution is merely the result of a lot of microevolution over a long period of time. So, here is the big point for ya mate!
--------->What biological or logical barriers prevent Macroevolution from becoming Microevolution? *waits to hear the crickets*

*chuckles at your last sentence*
Luke 6:42 (KJV)
"Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye."
This post was edited on 7/20 4:47 PM by OaklandReb
 
Drreb, its pointless to continue the discussion. I don't know you but please email me. I would like to meet you in person at a football game this fall. Wow, that was easy! Just going on faith, I think your a real person because I sent this message from my cellphone.
Posted from wireless.rivals.com[/URL]
 
matt79, Yes, I am a real person and as usual, we have found that an atheist is a person who just refuses to look! Anyone who can quote Genesis and the plural name of God but still says he doesn`t believe God is triune just refuses to look and what he writes and reads. I offered him names of some books to explain what he doen`t understand but so far, none read. Similar to condemming calculus because one is too lazy to read and study the calculus book. We will need to meet one day and discuss the Good News together. Until then, if you pass through West Point, stop by Old Waverly and visit. BTW saw where you are from La. I dearly love to go to Buras to fish. Even leave a little boat down there to use a bit. Peace. All is OK oakland. Remember, if God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. You may not know Him, but He knows you!
 
Let me get this straight...since Hitler might have "claimed" to be a Christian, all of Christianity must carry the burden. All Christians are bad? collective guilt !
Since a few yokels joined the klan and called themselves Christians, all Christians must carry that burden. collective guilt!

BUT the fact that Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pal Pot, and other mass murderers were atheist, well that's simply a coincidence?
The USSR, Communist China and others proclaimed atheism the state "religion" then murdered those who challenged authority. Just a coincidence? Those who professed a religion other than atheism were imprisoned and that's simply a coincidence?
 
THOTH: I say the same thing to you that I said to Doc: If you want to ignore facts, that is your choice. Enjoy it, by all means.
Revel in the untrue.

I never said that all of Christianity is represented by Christianity.
If you could have been arsed to read my previous response to you, you would have seen that I made that abundantly clear. You are ten times worse than the Tea People in terms of not bloody reading (or in their case, listening) to all that is said (or posted).

For goodness' sake man, if you aren't going to read the whole bloody response, I won't bother responding to you anymore.

As for your bit about the Stalin, Zedong, and Pot, AGAIN IF YOU COULD HAVE BEEN BLOODY WELL ARSED TO READ THE RESPONSES I HAVE GIVEN YOU AND THE DOC, YOU WOULD SEE MY RESPONSE!

-From a response to Doc: "It is not my intent to say religion is bad. Nor do I plan on having Hitler as the wee mascot for Christianity in an attempt to bastardize Christianity.
Quite the contrary mate. You have attempted to paint all atheists as Stalins and Hitlers when such is not the case. Sure Stalin was a bigger monster than Hitler, and Stalin was an avowed atheist. But here is where I took issue, and did some reverse form on ya: You seem to assert that because of Stalin's atheism he did what he did, which most certainly isn't the case. He did what he did because he was a power-hungry git who wanted to control all of the USSR under the guise of Marxism, which also was not the case."

Thou hypocrite.....
You want to paint us as monsters, yet you cannnot see the huge plank in front of your own eye.
You want to throw Stalin, Zedong, and Pol Pot at atheists, yet you and the Doc and apparently the whole lot in this whole discussion (with the exception of the militant atheist, rebelled) refuse to acknowledge that the biggest anti-Semite in the 20th century was of your own ilk. OI, IF YOU COULD PLEASE BE ARSED TO READ MY RESPONSE TO THE DOC THAT I HAVE POSTED FOR YOU, YOU WILL SEE THAT IT WAS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN MY INTENT TO HAVE HITLER AS A MASCOT FOR YOUR GRAND DELUSION.
Strangely enough, like the Catholics of the Middles Ages, you want to have a piece of cake and then have the whole lot as well. You want to refuse to acknowledge that the bastard Hitler was a Christian, yet you QUITE HYPOCRITICALLY want to use Stalin, Zedong, and Pot as wee mascots for Atheism.

Christian hypocrisy never ceases to amaze. If you god exists (.01% in my opinion), may he have mercy on some of you lot for your hypocrisy.
(Well, that is assuming he doesn't come down and do some smiting first. Oh....wait.... he got out of the miracle business 2010 years ago according to you lot, right? :rolleyes: )
 
How very magnanimous of you, rebelmatt79.

I've had faith that the Rebels would win the SEC Football Championship (or at least make it to Atlanta) ever since I joined the Rebel family. Perhaps the god described in the christian bible has sadistically tortured me and who knows how many others by denying us that feat, eh?
(Especially last year....)

*chuckles*
 
darn OaklandReb, I know i'm dum, but no need act like such a wanker about it.
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I never said you were dumb, mate.
I simply see that you don't bother to read my through responses to you.

lol, congrats on being aware of the word wanker, THOTH. :cheers: (bud light)

Allow me to teach you another (very handy in these parts) phrase: arse over tit (or elbow in mixed company)
It would be used as so: "Due to HDN kicking the Hunchback of Starkghanistan's arse in recruiting thus far, Dan Mullen's fan base is now going arse over tit at the number of highly ranked recruits committed to Ole Miss."
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Love those British words.
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While in the US Air Force, my first assignment base( beyond basic and tech school) was RAF Mildenhall England. It's alright when the blokes call each other mate. I still go to the "loo" . 1230 can still be half past, and two weeks is a fortnight.
I fell in love with British Rail, National Express coaches( not buses) and the London Underground..."the tube".
 
ASSALAMUALAIKUM WARAHMATULLAHI WABARAKATUH
I am a musliminah i am from Saudi Arabia my Husband is a sheikh who has heavly invested in football other than that wont take you long in who i am .
Anyway i beleive in one and that is ALLAH (SWT)and the Prophet Muhammed was his last messenger (PBUH)and Jesus (PBUH)is our salvation to come .
The name of the religion is Islam, which comes from an Arabic root word meaning "peace" and "submission." Islam teaches that one can only find peace in one's life by submitting to Almighty God (Allah) in heart, soul and deed. The same Arabic root word gives us "Salaam alaykum," ("Peace be with you"), the universal Muslim greeting.
Islam is a major world religion, with over 1 billion followers worldwide (1/5 of the world population). It is considered one of the Abrahamic, monotheistic faiths, along with Judaism and Christianity. Although usually associated with the Arabs of the Middle East, less than 10% of Muslims are in fact Arab. Muslims are found all over the world, of every nation, color and race.

Allah is the proper name for Almighty God, and is often translated merely as "God." Allah has other names that are used to describe His characteristics: the Creator, the Sustainer, the Merciful, the Compassionate, etc.
Muslims believe that since Allah alone is the Creator, it is He alone that deserves our devout love and worship. Islam holds to a strict monotheism. Any worship and prayers directed at saints, prophets, other human beings or nature is considered idolatry
The basic beliefs of Muslims fall into six main categories, which are known as the "Articles of Faith":
Faith in the unity of God
Faith in angels
Faith in prophets
Faith in books of revelation
Faith in an afterlife
Faith in destiny/divine decree
The "five pillars" of Islam:
In Islam, faith and good works go hand-in-hand. A mere verbal declaration of faith is not enough, for belief in Allah makes obedience to Him a duty.
The Muslim concept of worship is very broad. Muslims consider everything they do in life to be an act of worship, if it is done according to Allah's guidance. There are also five formal acts of worship which help strengthen a Muslim's faith and obedience. They are often called the "Five Pillars of Islam."

Testimony of faith (Kalima)
Prayer (Salat)
Almsgiving (Zakat)
Fasting (Sawm)
Pilgrimage (Hajj)
Daily life as a Muslim:
While often seen as a radical or extreme religion, Muslims consider Islam to be the middle road. Muslims do not live life with complete disregard for God or religious matters, but nor do they neglect the world to devote themselves solely to worship and prayer. Muslims strike a balance by fulfilling the obligations of and enjoying this life, while always mindful of their duties to Allah and to others.
Morals and manners
Business ethics
Modesty in dress and behavior
Dietary rules
Marriage
Care of children and elderly
Racism and prejudice
Relations with non-Muslims
Shukran to all brother and sisters i hope you take joy in what i wrote
Uhm!!
 
Hitler's death was colabarated coverup and faked death .
3days prior to his so called suicide he was searching through his doubles .
Also Hitler was studying Quran for over nearly 20 years of his life ,for a supreme regime to which he thought he could find in Islam but with out being a muslim because in the end he thought he was the supreme being .
 
Ms Halal....Christ said that there would be others claiming to be a lot of things and we would need to sort them out and find the truth. He also said if the one speaking wouldn`t state that Christ is the living Son of God, they were out to decieve. If you would please, tell me the name of your god`s son? If your god has a son and his name is Jesus, then I`ll gho along with the god of islam being the God I worship. Please explain conversion by the sword? Please explain suicide bombings?
Some things here just don`t add up, do they?
 
Welcome, Mrs. Halal.

- Firstly, how on earth did you get internet access????

- Secondly, feel free to prove your deity's existence at any time.

- Thirdly, why is Allah the proper name for the Abrahamic deity?
Why not Elohim or YHWH?

-Fourthly, what evidence it there of Allah's creation?

-Lastly, why must Muslims make the pilgramage to Mecca?


I'm glad to see we now have some diversity here.
 
@ Mrs. Halal: What about the evidence of Hitler's teeth?
They match perfectly with his dental records from the 20's and early 30's.
 
@ The Doc: Over the past couple of days, I have been looking at the bible and have noticed much inconsistency. I have found 15 examples thus far, and would much appreciate it if you could address them:

1. Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34

... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52

2. For wrath killeth the foolish man...
- Job 5:2

... let not the sun go down on your wrath.
- Ephesians 4:26

3. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which
is in heaven.
- John 3:13

... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
- 2 Kings 2:11

4. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
- John 5:31

I am one that bear witness of myself...
- John 8:18
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

5. A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children...
- Proverbs 13:22

Sell that ye have and give alms...
- Luke 12:33

6. Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24

7. I and my father are one.
- John 10:30

... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
- John 14:28
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

8. Thou shalt not kill
- Exodus 20:13

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his
side... and slay every man his brother...
- Exodus 32:27

9. For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works.
- Ephesians 2:8-9

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.
- James 2:24

10. ... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall
hear his voice, and come forth...
- John 5:28-29

As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth
down to the grave shall come up no more.
- Job 7:9

11. Honor thy father and mother.
- Exodus 20:12

If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
life also, he cannot be my disciple.
- Luke 14:26

12. Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth...
- Matthew 6:19

In the house of the righteous is much treasure...
- Proverbs 15:6

13. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.
- Ezekiel 18:20

... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth
generation.
- Exodus 20:5

*14. Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
- Matthew 5:22

[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind.
- Matthew 23:17

15. With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26

And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19


*= A favourite of mine. Why so much hypocrisy from one held in such high regard?
 
Oakland, I`l answer your questions when I can see over this load I have during the week. I may have to take all this a part at the time, but I`ll do it. Now, There is a vast time differential in your contradictory statements(as you call them. Also understand that the people Jesus was speaking to were generally poor and uneducated, so much of what He said must be read through understanding the times. Also you might want to look over what you asked......justification is not salvation. I`ll be back, but look over some of those terms for correct definitions so we will be discussing apples to apples. OK?
 
It's no rush at all mate. Respond however best fits your schedule.

I reckon you should take some personal time for yourself in between your patients and our discussion. You shouldn't exhaust yourself after all.
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