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Do you believe in a deity?

Wow some intrest while I was out. Did y'all miss me? (course not, you guys just ignore my questions anyway)
Welcome to the discussion Mrs Halal.
I'll leave your beliefs alone for now. although I've been labeled "militant" seem the doc and oakland have took the offensive this time.

However...
(Mrs. Halal)
"Hitler's death was colabarated coverup and faked death .
3days prior to his so called suicide he was searching through his doubles .
Also Hitler was studying Quran for over nearly 20 years of his life ,for a supreme regime to which he thought he could find in Islam but with out being a muslim because in the end he thought he was the supreme being ."

A conspiracy story. He died in that bunker. He was strung out on amphetamines and delusional spouting impossible orders and commanding fictitious army groups long before Russian shells hit Berlin. high ranking Nazis where out for themselves and some of them did escape. but Hitler didn't have the capacity to setup his secret Antarctic base or goto south America. besides it was in the interest of the ones that did escape to leave Hitler behind to keep the heat off them.

what i'd like to discuss is the Catholic involvement in their escaping.
(while admitting Christians assisted in nazi actions doesn't label all christianity evil it is the first step in revealing your delusion, Doc.)

(the Doc)
" Christ said that there would be others claiming to be a lot of things and we would need to sort them out and find the truth."

Let's talk about "truth" then. you hold the texts of that book so sacred yet know nothing of the thing. What validates that book other than it's self? And if it is a gods word why have men tinkered with it so much?
that's step two of exposing your delusion, quite a bit is known about how your o so holy new testament came to be.

Oakland's contradictions are just getting started with the problems in the bible. Try objectively reading it as a whole... it's propaganda started by Constantine to control the population, letting him act on behalf of god and people would follow. The whole thing is setup to brainwash you to not question what you are told, act a certain way and think like this. With lessons on the superiority of your beliefs and the need to propagate them. Criticizing other belief hypocritically and not even realizing it because you're so deluded you don't even understand your "faith" as a whole. people like you take anything they are told as truth if it's given in the proper format. (religious morals or fight the heathens... whatever)

hell, you prolly think we are justified in occupying Iraq and Afghanistan.
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This post was edited on 7/30 2:08 AM by rebelled
 
For 1st Question
The Qur’an tells us a lot of wonderful things about Jesus. As a result, believers in the Qur’an love Jesus, honour him, and believe in him. In fact, no Muslim can be a Muslim unless he or she believes in Jesus, on whom be peace.

The Qur’an says that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he spoke while he was still only a baby, that he healed the blind and the leper by God’s leave, and that he raised the dead by God’s leave.

What then is the significance of these miracles? First, the virgin birth. God demonstrates his power to create in every way. God created everyone we know from a man and a woman. But how about Adam, on whom be peace? God created him from neither a man nor a woman. And Eve from only a man, but not a woman. And, finally, to complete the picture, God created Jesus from a woman, but not a man.

What about the other miracles? These were to show that Jesus was not acting on his own behalf, but that he was backed by God. The Qur’an specifies that these miracles were performed by God’s leave. This may be compared to the Book of Acts in the Bible, chapter 2, verse 22, where it says that the miracles were done by God to show that he approved of Jesus. Also, note that Jesus himself is recorded in the Gospel of John to have said, “I can do nothing of my own authority” (5:30). The miracles, therefore, were done not by his own authority, but by God’s authority.

What did Jesus teach? The Qur’an tells us that Jesus came to teach the same basic message which was taught by previous prophets from God?that we must shun every false god and worship only the one true God. Jesus taught that he is the servant and messenger of that one true God, the God of Abraham. These Quranic teachings can be compared with the Bible ( Mark 10:18; Matthew 26:39; John 14:28, 17:3, and 20:17) where Jesus teaches that the one he worshipped is the only true God. See also Matthew 12:18; Acts 3:13, and 4:27 where we find that his disciples knew him as Servant of God.

The Qur’an tells us that some of the Israelites rejected Jesus, and conspired to kill him, but Allah (God) rescued Jesus and raised him to Himself. Allah will cause Jesus to descend again, at which time Jesus will confirm his true teachings and everyone will believe in him as he is and as the Qur’an teaches about him.

Jesus is the Messiah. He is a word from Allah, and a spirit from Him. He is honoured in this world and in the hereafter, and he is one of those brought nearest to Allah.

Jesus was a man who spoke the truth which he heard from God. This can be compared with the Gospel According to John where Jesus says to the Israelites: “You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” (John 8:40).


2nd Question
SUICIDE BOMBINGS
And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors."

- Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2:190)

The dangerous escalation of violence in the world is disturbing to all people of conscience, from September 11 to the Middle East battles, and other random acts of violence perpetrated at innocent civilians.

In Islam, several things are clear:
Suicide is forbidden. "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).
The taking of life is allowed only by way of justice (i.e. the death penalty for murder), but even then, forgiveness is better. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33).
In pre-Islamic Arabia, retaliation and mass murder was commonplace. If someone was killed, the victim's tribe would retaliate against the murderer's entire tribe. This practice was directly forbidden in the Qur'an (2:178-179). Following this statement of law, the Qur'an says, "After this, whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave chastisement" (2:178). No matter what wrong we perceive as being done against us, we may not lash out against an entire population of people.
The Qur'an admonishes those who oppress others and transgress beyond the bounds of what is right and just. "The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice. For such there will be a chastisement grievous (in the Hereafter)" (42:42).
Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.
The predominant theme in the Qur'an is forgiveness and peace. Allah (God) is Merciful and Forgiving, and seeks that in His followers. Indeed, most people who spend time on a personal level with ordinary Muslims have found them to be peaceful, honest, hard-working, civic-minded people.

In the fight against terrorism of all forms, it is important to understand who or what is our enemy. We can only fight against this horror if we understand its causes and motivations. What motivates a person to lash out in this violent, inhumane way? As the About.com Guide to Terrorism Issues points out, researchers conclude that religion neither causes nor explains suicide terrorism. The true motivation of such attacks is something that all of us -- mental health professionals, politicians, and common people -- need to understand, so that we can address the issues more honestly, prevent more violence, and find ways to work towards lasting peace.



"O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety."

- Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8)
 
Hajj (Pilgrimage)

This is the fifth principle of Islam. A Muslim is required to go on a Pilgrimage to Mecca (Saudi Arabia), once in a lifetime, if the individual has the means to do so.

The performance of Hajj (Pilgrimage) is incumbent on all Muslims, at least once in a life-time, if the circumstances permit. Hajj is obligatory only when an individual is in a position, both physically and materially, to undertake the journey to Mecca, and to make sufficient provision for their dependents during the period of their absence.

Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham):

Abraham is a figure revered by Muslims, Jews, and Christians alike as a righteous person who lived over four thousand years ago. His story can be found in the Bible as well as the Qur'an (the Muslim holy book). Abraham is considered to be the patriach of monotheism, or "belief in the One God," who sought a personal relationship with his Creator. He left his native city of Ur in Mesopotamia after voicing opposition to his people's polytheistic practices, and eventually settled in Egypt with his family. Later, he escorted one of his wives, Hajar, and their infant son Ishmail, to a desolate valley in Arabia and left them there, trusting in God's promise to care for them.

Hajar, concerned about feeding her young baby, began searching the surroundings for food and water. According the the Qur'an, in response to Hajar's prayers, a spring miraculously gushed forth at Ishma'il's feet to quench their thirst. Hajar climbed nearby hills searching for food and looking for caravans on the horizon. Eventually, some passing traders stopped in the valley, and asked Hajar's permission to water their camels. In time, the traders decided to settle in the little valley, and eventually the settlement grew into the city of Makkah. Abraham returned from time to time to visit, and when Ishma'il was about thirteen years old, he and Ishma'il constructed the Katbah, an empty cube-shaped building, as a place dedicated for the worship of the One God. Eventually, Makkah became an important trading post by the time of Prophet Muhammad, twenty- five hundred years later.

The Purpose of Hajj:

In commemoration of the trials of Abraham and his family in Makkah, which included Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son in response to God's command, Muslims make a pilgrimage to the sacred city at least once in their lifetime. The Hajj is one of the "five pillars" of Islam, and thus an essential part of Muslims' faith and practice.

Muslims from all over the world, including the United States, travel to Makkah (in modern- day Saudi Arabia). Before arriving in the holy city, Muslims enter a state of consecration (dedication) known as ihram, by removing their worldly dothes and donning the humble attire of pilgrimsNtwo seamless white sheets for men, and simple white dresses and scarves for women. The white garments are symbolic of human equality and unity before God, since all the pilgrims are dressed similarly. Money and status no longer are a factor for the pilgrims - the equality of each person in the eyes of God becomes paramount.

Upon arriving in Makkah, pilgrims perform the initial tawaf, which is a circular, counter- clockwise procession around the Ka'bah. All the while, they state "Labbayka Allahumma Labbayk," which means "Here I am at your service, O God, Here I am!" The tawaf is meant to awaken each Muslim's consciousness that God is the center of their reality and the source of all meaning in life, and that each person's higher self-identity derives from being part of the community of Muslim believers, known as the ummah. Pilgrims also perform the sa'i, which is hurrying seven times between the small hills named Safa and Marwah, reenacting the Biblical and Qurtanic story of Hajar's desperate search for lifegiving water and food.

Next, on the first official day of Hajj (8th of Dhul-Hijjah), the two million pilgrim s travel a few miles to the plain of Mina and camp there. From Mina, pilgrims travel the following morning to the plain of Arafat where they spend the entire day in earnest supplication and devotion. That evening, the pilgrims move and camp at Muzdalifa, which is a site between Mina and Arafat. Muslims stay overnight and offer various prayers there.

Then the pilgrims return to Mina on the 10th, and throw seven pebbles at a stone pillar that represents the devil. This symbolizes Abraham's throwing stones at Satan when he tried to dissuade Abraham from sacrificing his son. Then the pilgrims sacrifice a sheep, reenacting the story of Abraham,who, in place of his son, sacrificed a sheep that God had provided as a substitute. The meat from the slaughtered sheep is distributed for consumption to family, friends, and poor and needy people in the community. After the sacrifice, the pilgrims return to Makkah to end the formal rites of Hajj by performing a final tawaf and sa'i.

Muslims believe the rites of the Hajj were designed by God and taught through prophet Muhammad. Muslims believe that since the time of Adam, there have been thousands of prophets, including such well-known figures as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and David, and that Muhammad was the final prophet of God.

The Hajj is designed to develop God consciousness and a sense of spiritual upliftment. It is also believed to be an opportunity to seek forgiveness of sins accumulated thoughout life. Prophet Muhammad had said that a person who performs Hajj properly "will return as a newly born baby [free of all sins]." The pilgrimage also enables Muslims from all around the world, of different colors, languages, races, and ethnicities, to come together in a spirit of universal brotherhood and sisterhood to worship the One God together.

Eid Ala-Adha


Although only the pilgrims in Makkah can participate in the Hajj fully, all the other Muslims in the world join with them by celebrating the Eid ul Adha [eed ul ud-ha], or Festival of Sacrifice. On the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah, Muslims around the world wear their nicest clothing and attend a special prayer gathering in the morning. This is followed by a short sermon, after which everyone stands up to hug and greet one another. The traditional Eid greeting is "Ei dMubarak," which means "Holiday Blessings." Next, people visit each other's homes and partake in festive meals with special dishes, beverages, and desserts. Children receive gifts and sweets on this joyous occasion.

In addition, like the pilgrims in Makkah, those Muslims who can afford to do so offer domestic animals, usually sheep, as a symbol of Abraham's sacrifice. The meat is distributed for consumption to family, friends, and to the poor and needy.

The Eid ul-Adha is a major religious event in the lives of Muslims. Usually, communities celebrate tnis occasion over a period of several days. Eid ul-Adha - Festival that takes place during the Hajj, on the 10th of Dhul Hijjah, in commemoration of the sacrifices of Abraham and his family.
But what is never said much of is that in a life time one should also make its pilgramage to Jerusalem to Mosque Al Aqsa to full the Haj but because of the current situation within Israel this can be proved difficult ....
 
what evidence it there of Allah's creation?.............

Do they not look at the sky above them? How We have built it and adorned it, and there are no rifts therein? And the earth - We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and caused it to bring forth plants of beauteous kinds (in pairs). And We send down from the sky blessed water whereby We give growth unto gardens and the grain of crops. And tall palm-trees, with shoots of fruit-stalks, piled one over another. (Surah Qaf, 6-7, 9-10)
The tawheed of Allah in His names requires the belief in each and every name He ascribed to Himself; and belief in the qualities and consequences incorporated in them. Take for example Ar-Rahmaan 'the Merciful' which was mentioned in the Qur’aan on more than one occasion. We must believe in it as one of the names of Allah, believe in the fact that mercy is one of the attributes of Allah, and also believe that Allah has mercy upon whomever He wishes. The same applies to all the other names of Allah mentioned in the Qur'aan or in the Sunnah of His Prophet (peace be upon him).

The names of Allah are those proper nouns employed in reference to Him in the Qur’aan and the Sunnah. Every one of those names refers to one or more attributes of Allah. Each name is derived from its verbal noun, such as the All-Knowing (Al-‘Aleem), the Able (Al-Qaadir), the All-Hearing (As-Samee’), the All-Seeing (Al-Baseer), and so on. The name Al-‘Aleem (the All-Knowing), for example, is derived from the attribute of 'knowledge', and the same is true of the Merciful (Ar-Rahmaan), etc.

The name that incorporates the meanings of all the other nouns and attributes is the name 'Allah'. Some scholars, such as Ibnul-Qayyim, Sibawayh and At-Tabari, contended that it is derived from the word 'Al-Ilaah', meaning the God. Others maintained that it is not derived from any other word. There is no contradiction between those names being adjectives or nouns. The name 'Merciful' (Ar-Rahmaan), for instance, is both a proper noun and an adjective. All of Allah's names are adjectives of praise as well as being references to their proper meanings. Those names were described as beautiful (husnaa in Arabic) because they describe the Most Excellent and Exalted Creator.
The Number Of Allah's Names

Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim reported on the authority of Abu Hurayrah (radiallahu anhu) that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) said:

Allah has ninety nine names, one hundred minus one; and he who counts them all will enter Al-Jannah (the Garden Of Heaven), and Allah is "witr" (One) and loves the witr (i.e. odd numbers). [Al-Bukhaari, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasaai, Ibn Majah]

Counting Allah's ninety nine names means: knowing them, learning them by heart, understanding them, believing in them, good observance towards them, presentation of their boundaries in our dealings with Allah, and supplicating Allah through them. Thus, the hadeeth means that whoever committed those names to memory, contemplated their implications, respected their meanings, conducted himself in accordance with them, sanctified their Owner, such a person will surely be rewarded with the Gardens of Paradise.

There is a consensus among the scholars that Allah's names are not confined to the number mentioned by the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). His (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) statement simply tells us that a Muslim who properly believes in and applies those ninety nine names will surely enter Al-Jannah. It does not negate the existence of other names for the Almighty. The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) told us about entering Al-Jannah, not about the total number of Allah's names.

The proof that there are other names which the Creator did not reveal to us, is the following hadeeth of the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam):

If any Muslim afflicted with distress or grief makes this supplication, his supplication will be accepted: 'Oh Allah, I am Your slave, son of Your slave, son of Your maidservant. My forehead is in Your hand. Your command concerning me prevails, and Your decision concerning me is just. I call upon You by every one of the beautiful names by which You have described Yourself, or which You have revealed in Your Book, or have taught any one of Your creatures, or which You have chosen to keep in the knowledge of the unseen with You, to make the Qur'aan the delight of my heart, the light of my breast, and remove of any grief, sorrows, and afflictions', Allah will remove ones affliction and replace it with joy and happiness." The Companions, then, said; "Do we have to learn these words?" The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) replied: "Yes, any one who heard them should learn them.

[Ahmed, Abu Awaana, Abu Yala, Al-Bazzar]

We reiterate the rule that the only names and attributes to be ascribed to Allah are those mentioned in the Quraan or in the authentic Sunnah; they are directly communicated to us and are not the products of opinion and interpretation. Allah is to be described only by the attributes with which He had described Himself or with which His Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) had described Him. And He is to be named only by the names with which He had named Himself or with which His Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) had named Him.


AND LASTLY
HOW DID I GET INTERNET ACCESS LIKE EVERY ONE ELSE I PAY FOR IT
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Well, I made it back from a very busy week. It really is interesting and a bit sad that rebelled has to get personal and attack people just because they don`t believe what he wants them to. Before I take a stab at oakland`s questions, let me address rebelled here for a bit.
I won`t insult you about your IQ and I`ll expect you to do the same. You want to make personal attacks? If so, I`ll not be a part of your agenda. If you want to throw degrees and honors at each other to prove how smart we all are,then all we learn is how long we spent attempting to become educated in our chosen field. I think I can manage to keep up with you, and just maybe have.......see how useless this becomes?
You tell me that I don`t know the Bible. Well I`ll admit that I don`t know it as well as many, but I`ll try to stumble along in my own feeble way and possibly answer some questions from a really smart guy like you.
There are many ways to "study" the Bible. It has been proven to be a pretty good history book.....so it`s interesting. It`s also a good book to read as a way to learn lessons of life. Instead of attacking people, maybe you could learn how to treat others. You might want to read Luke 10: 30-37. See, there is a lesson!!!
 
Oakland, you tell me that you have been "looking" at the Bible. Well that`s a start. Now let`s see what you found.
1. Matt 10:34....Jesus brought a sword(the Word of God) in fact the very spoken Word of God is a two edged sword and was a figure of speach. Isaiah 49:2, Eph 6:17, Heb 4:12, Rev 1:16, 2:16, 19:15, 19:21. When people don`t agree on what is true, they often resort to violence. Jesus is the actual Truth and the actual Word of God. Some accept this and some do not.(see rebelled`s post) Some get angry, some look for the truth, some run from it. Some get peace from it and some attack it. Matt 26:52 is a warning against violence and is literal.
2. Job 5:2 and Eph 4:26 are certainly not inconsistent, they are simply 2 statements about wrath. Sounds like 2 good suggestions about wat wrath will do and probably needs to be dealt with ASAP. Do you think it is a good thing to go to bed mad? "The man who can make you angry is the man who can kill you" Anger is an emotion that can cause a heart attack, so best to get it away from you.
3. John 3:13 was written before Jesus ascention and was true. 2 Kings 2:11 refers to "went up" which is an imperfect tense used in the Old Testiment 19,885 times. It does NOT refer to reserection. No inconsistency here at all.
4. John 5:31 and John 8:18 must be read in context. Infact why not read the whole book of John in one sitting and see how all this plays out? The first statement is refering to His works bearing witness and if people looked at what Christ did they would not have to be told who He was. In John 8:18 Christ is refering to the fact that He is the only one with authority to tell who He is.
5. Soloman had agood idea there. Do you not agree? The Jewish family was usually all involved in the same business and the business was passed down. Do you advise bankruptcy and leaving your children destitute? Luke 12:33 was asked of a man who had no real faith except in his possessions. This was a statement to one man, one time, for a particular reason. The rest of the statemdent asks him to do something after he sold all his goods. Wonder if not being willing to sell all he had might be a hindrance to"and then come follow me"?
6. Psalms 112:1-3 Fearing the Lord means that one follows the precepts of the Lord and that would bring wealth in many ways. Riches will follow. Matt 19:24 is about a camel passing between 2 posts placed close together to clean the dirt and trash from the animal. A man who depends upon his earthly wealth and places all his trust in that wealth is not trusting God for anything. Tough to get into the Kingdom with no trust in the King! Not necessarily talking about heaven here because heaven is only part of the Kingdom of God.

Have to stop here now. The ER is busy tonight. doc
 
I didn't insult your IQ, though now I think maybe I should of (did i hit close to home?), seems you proved all the degrees in the world doesn't prove that you can relate to reality. There have been people much smarter than both of us that never held any degrees, that piece of paper says less then you think (i got one too). Someone's ability to memorize what a book says has little or nothing to do with their ability to relate what they have learned to anything else.

Personal attack? where? i missed it, I "attacked" a group of people for their simplistically delusional views based on what is said in one book without any corroborating texts (you just fall in there). Also more an observation than an attack, but dodge it if you can't refute it, of course.

You're attempt to dodge the point of what I said because you don't like my directness is ridiculous. Admitting that you don't know much about the bible should concern you (it was obvious to me) since you hold your beliefs above all reason, lest you could do is find out why for yourself. Do you practice such half hearted research in all aspects of your life? Ignore me if you want too, but saying you're delusional isn't an insult anymore then calling you ignorant of something, if the observation holds merit. That you don't understand why the bible is not the credible source you think it is and you refuse to have an original thought on the subject proves both to be true... hardly a crime.

Here's the point: The bible is pure propaganda and NOT an accurate history tool. the fact that it mentions historical places or events doesn't mean what is said is factual... that goes for any book. you're not going to crack open a history book and find out exactly what happened either there is always the author's bias to consider.

Not to take into account that what you are reading is possibly misconstrued and base everything you believe on it is delusional. (truth)

then to argue in it's defense with out understanding the relevance of the points brought against your position is ignorant. (truth)

If you don't wanna know what proves your book inaccurate and refuse to hear anything that doesn't fit into your "black and white" view of the world, that is your right... but don't get confused that doesn't make you right... Hitler and Islam (that you seem not to understand either) all fit into a gray area with the bible. that you can't seem to comprehend that is your delusion. don't like that term? refute my point,show me the error of my understanding. (that degree won't help you tho, seems to be outside ur field of expertise.)
 
Well, maybe I can explain it this way....Have I called you ignorant or delusional? Just because 2 people don`t agree on a subject, one of them has to be all that? Civil discourse is quite alright and I`ll discuss most anything with most anyone, but when you start using name calling....I`ll just asume that I won the point, OK?
I`m sure you are much smarter than I and have all "those" answers about the Bible and personal relationship with the God of the universe. I`ll just pause here and allow you to demostrate all that knowledge. Please show me(and I will certainly read and consider what you say) where the Bible is in error. History? Prophetic? Geographical? Start anywhere you want. I`m always willing to learn something new.
Oh, and about Hitler...I simply don`t care. He`s gone now and of no more than historical interest. Whatever he claimed to be in 1940, he isn`t now.
 
Maybe defining those words will help ya some…

Ignorant: lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified.

Delusional : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated.

Not name calling, factual observation if anything.

Here start with Wkipedia and work your way down as you do you’ll understand my point. I’m attacking the validity of the text (the book as a whole). The origins aren’t what you think they are so their relevance is questionable, no god handed these down and the people who wrote and collated the thing didn’t live 50 ? 100 yrs after jesus died. Christianity isn’t as moral and clean as you wanna believe either…

(you’ll have to copy and paste em… I commend you for your post count on such a primitive forum, BTW.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament

http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/NT_Hist.htm

Not to mention how many times it’s been “reevaluated”…

http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent.html

(You didn’t even know enough to refute my remark about Constantine, easily done with a simple search.)

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html
(I’ll let you do your own homework on the wars and atrocities caused by chrisianity.)

Most of the points I’d make have already been made by Oakland and dismissed by you anyway. I’m saying you are not well enough informed (yet) to dismiss those claims (I tested that too) and that believing in some supernatural being that magically created the universe with means not relative to said universe and then leave NO trace of his existence is “delusional”. Burden is still on you(OK?) to prove you can substantiate your claims of the magical sky father and those scriptures are not where the answers is. The book doesn't even come from where it says it does… Why would I need to prove anymore historical inaccuracies in the texts? But let me know when they find eden, the arc of the covenant, noah’s boat or anything that prove a story actually happened… mentioning a place that existed in the time the texts were wrote is hardly impressive and false claims of relics with no proof isn't any better.

If your insulted by your own inability to substantiate your claims, do something about it... Don't be afraid to ask why, you just may get an answer when you look.
 
You know, for one so knowledgable about Bible history you are very uninformed. I never defended Christianity but I did say that Christ came to earth to establish a way to have a personal relationship with God. That is no delusion. Let`s see now, writers of the Bible lived when?? James, Peter, Matthew, and Stephen all lived at the time of Jesus, and knew Him personally. They wrote what they saw. You probably doubt first hand information, but that`s just the way things are.
Man, I`m not here to mentally spar with you about the existance of God or of truths even blind men can see. My God does not need defense from you. He is perfectly able to stand on His own. One can use the tired old argument crap from Wiki and Dawkins, but there is evidence to be found that you are obviously not interested in finding. If someday you find yourself in a really bad situation, with very little hope at all, you DO know where to look. Maybe you will....maybe you won`t.
 
Hi Doc, sorry for the long delay in my response. I've been on holiday back in the UK.

1. Yes, I noticed the figure of speech in that verse, but it is still quite noteworthy that the deity's man-god self (himself) says that he comes with a sword (his word) and then says that those who use a sword will die by it. Sounds like a cosmic awful sense of humour to me.

2. They are quite inconsistent mate. They say, "Anger will kill the foolish man" and then "Never let your anger subside". I do not think it is good to be mad, but some things are unavoidable in terms of getting angry at. I agree with your last sentence, but find it bemusing.
Some locals here get "fightin' mad" about the christian god YHWH not being in "schools, gov't and everyone's life." (From that most amusing sign on the 18-wheeler (lorry) trailor by Highway 6's red light onto West Jackson.)

3. No inconsistency? Really?
So the fact that the bible has it written that Elijah was swept up into Heaven by way of a cosmic tornado and that John's verse has it that no man has ever ascended into heaven is not inconsistent? I will respectfully ask that you prove your statement that the John verse was written before Jesus' time.

4. In context? lol
It's fairly cut and dry mate. The god-man which is in fact YHWH contradicts himself. That knocks a gigantic hole in many arguements about the "O" attributes arguments.
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5. Yes, one should leave some money behind for your children. Of course bankruptcy is not the answer.

6. Your 3rd sentence confuses me. The verse from Matthew is quite straightforward. I find that 3rd sentence to be dishonest of you. It clearly says that a rich man cannot and will not get into "heaven".
Both are huge contradictions of the other.
 
For the non-believers out there...Oakland and whoever else.
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How do you deal with death and serious illness? So when a dear friend passes one can't say..."he is in a better place now" or "she had such a strong faith and is now in Heaven" .
When a child's pet dies, one cannot comfort the kid with promises of a doggy heaven.
When an atheist, agnostic, or other nonbelievers gets cancer, they are unable to proclaim..."it's in God's hands", nor can they be reassured by " I'm praying for you".
So how does an atheist/nonbeliever cope with death and serious illness?

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- "How do you deal with death and serious illness?"
Quite simple mate, we celebrate the life that he/she lived and we remember the good times that we had with that person.

-- "So when a dear friend passes one can't say..."he is in a better place now" or "she had such a strong faith and is now in Heaven" ."
Of course not. Though the GOD (Grand Old Delusion) may help some people cope, I feel that there is no need in pretending about it all. Death is a natural part of life, just as birth is. Do you tell yourself "Don't worry, Father Christmas (Santa Claus) is coming on December 25th to bring me a stack on money." when you spend too much money and have bills that you cannot pay? I should hope not.
As I say, we just celebrate the life that person lived and hold onto the memories we have of or with that person. No need in having make-believe in it all.

--- "When a child's pet dies, one cannot comfort the kid with promises of a doggy heaven."
Nope, and that is excellent. A child cannot fully comprehend the whole "god" concept, nor of heaven or hell.
That is when we try to explain to them the facts of life; you live and you eventually die. They still probably won't understand it, but at least you won't be filling the children with unfounded, illogical nonsense.

---- "When an atheist, agnostic, or other nonbelievers gets cancer, they are unable to proclaim..."it's in God's hands", nor can they be reassured by " I'm praying for you"."
In all actuality, an Agnostic can claim such. They can proclaim "God/Elohim/YHWH/Allah/Thor/Invisible Pink Unicorn in the sky, I don't know if you are there, but I hope you will help me through this." Agnostics are fence-sitters after all, and they simple don't know what to make of it all.
You are quite right about us atheists though, and that makes us all the more stronger. Prayer is a load of rubbish anyway, seeing as how no deities answer them. Prayer does not work because God is completely imaginary.


In turn, and on a somewhat same train of thought, I have a couple of counter-queries: When a bacterium dies, does it get an afterlife? Have you ever really thought about your soul? Have you ever thought about how the afterlife would work? Which life forms get an afterlife and which do not?


I hope I have fully answered your questions.
 
rebelled, I don`t mind answering questions in response to a seeker of the truth. One who is looking for something bigger than "self". Argument just for argument is foolish and gets nowhere. Your purposeless babble bores me.
 
Oakland....good on ya lad! The old "light hearted atheist" routine is great on a message board. All atheists have all the answers when sitting behind a desk typing out a cute contrite question or little snip of an answer. I certainly don`t know all of your history, nor do I care to, but I`ll give you an interesting observation on a personal note. In the jungle, at night, in a hole, with all hell going off aroud you, one needs a bit more than cute comebacks. I can tell from many of your comments that you have never been totally helpless in a situation in which you have absolutely no control over your destiny. Does santa come to mind....not hardly. I will leave you with some advice you can take or leave....a lot of people are probably wrong on some things they think they are right about. Keep up an honest search for truth and always ask honest questions. Consider the answers you get.
 
What's gotten your knickers in a twist doc?

Atheists do not have all the answers at all, I've already posted that.
What we do have is scientific evidence that is testable and offers proof.

In terms of spiritual stuff, we have doubt and doubt is humble.
We do not have those answers (yet).
Religion seems to me to be dangerous, because it allows people who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Anyone who tells me that they know, they just know, what happens to us when we die, I can promise them they don't. How can I be sure of this? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have for the "Big Questions" is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Man needs to be humble considering that much of our history is a litany of getting stuff wrong, dead wrong.
People who consider themselves moderately religious, but not religiously fundamentalist (who are beyond being helped), need to take a look in the mirror and realize that the solace and comfort that their religion brings comes at a terrible price. If you belonged to a political party or a social group that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia and violence as Judaism, Christianity and Islam, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife. I recently went to a niece's Pentecostal Church anf they were wishing that the world would end, so they could be with Jesus. Wishing for death is not normal, it is a neurological disorder. Never again will I ever set foot in a Pentecostal church.

As for your comment about being in the jungle with hell happening all around you and you needing something, you do not need an imaginary friend. Nor would I make a "cute comeback" as you have suggested. Were that the case and were I there with you, my first instinct would be to check on you and make sure you are alright. Then I would ask you to help formulate a plan to get out of the plight we were in. You wouldn't be able to help me because you would be on your knees talking to the inside of your head.
Your comment "I can tell" is bullshi*. That reply does not surprise me because with your beliefs come the arrogant certitude about everything that only handicaps you and others like you.

I have addressed your comments to the best of my ability and knowledge and now you give me this load of bollocks. Not only have you failed to address more than 65% of the stuff I've asked you, but you've swerved, dodged and completely ignored the stuff I took my valuable time to post for you. So have those with your beliefs. If I sound like I have quit my search, it's because I have (Of the 3 Abrahamic religions anyway). I just finished reading the Talmud and Qur'an and I have arrived at my conclusion.
If there is a god out there (which I still allow for) it certainly is not Elohim, Jehova, YHWH, or Allah and his 99 other names.

I have enjoyed this conversation nonetheless, but I am sincerely hoping that this state gets past the neurological disorder that is the 3 Abrahamic religions.

Before I finish, I'd like to point out to you Doc, that you also are an Atheist. You do not believe in Thor, Odin, Cthulu, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I just go one step further. If you ever realize the predicament you've put yourself in, try Atheism's waters. Step right in, the water is quite cool and refreashing. You will instantly feel that albatross(weight) that is religious guilt lifted from your shoulders.

Thanks for the conversation Doc.
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This post was edited on 8/16 5:34 PM by OaklandReb
 
Thank you Oakland for responding.
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Religious people can recall the "good times" of a lost loved one or friend also. We also share hope is being re-united with that person. Those without a belief in God cannot ever hope to see that spouse, child, parent, or best friend again. The question is....what fills that gap?

On terminal illness, about this time last year I visited a young man with cancer. The only consolation left to him was his faith in God. He desperately wished to live on for the kids and wife, but accepted his fate as a part of divine destiny of sorts. A few months later, his funeral was quit painful. To be honest, I'm not sure how a unbelieving family could have coped.
 
Indeed, I am quite aware that you all share that belief. Admittedly, it is a very nice hope. No one fills that gap, THOTH, and for us, no one needs to.
We accept that we are products of nature. Just because we are human does not put us into a special category. We are still homo sapiens. We live for a time and then we die, plain and simple.

In such cases as you write about, it is understandable that he would rely on "god". Never in my dreams would I try to point out to him that he is delusional. Of course I disagree with the "divine destiny" bit, but as I say, in the circumstances I would let him KBO. (Keep Buggering On)

It is understandable that you would not understand how a family that has no god would cope. I know nothing about you of course, but if you fit in to the 92% majority of people in this state, it is likely that you have never critically examined your own religion. If I may suggest such, I would daresay that you were "born into" your religion and it has always provided you happiness via the "community feeling" you get from seeing your friends at church and you have had no reason to examine it and do so critically. If this is true, it is hardly surprising that you would be at a loss to understand how we cope. So the question is, have you ever critically examined your own faith, THOTH?

Let me illustrate a point, no one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc.
Therefore, the question I would ask you to consider right now is simple: Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense?
This post was edited on 8/17 12:26 PM by OaklandReb
 
Do I examine my faith? SURE..... that's what keeps it fresh. The power of discernment is considered a spiritual gift and that gift is honed by reading the Bible. Martin Luther challenged the teaching of his day by critically examination and became a stronger Christian in the process.

As for the Book of Mormon and the Koran, I have no problem with those who use them in their own pursuit of truth. In our pursuit of truth, we must realize that no mortal has a monopoly on truth.
Paradoxically enough the atheist by proclaiming "there is no god" and thus a monopoly on truth, has violated the very "reason" that they so admire. That is....there is NO PROOF that God is merely a myth, which means atheism is blind faith. Or should I say...it takes a strong blind faith in one's dogma to proclaim "no god" as a an absolute truth.
 
" No one fills that gap, THOTH, and for us, no one needs to. "
I find it somewhat hard to fathom that when a nonbeliever's beloved wife passes that he has a beer on her memory, states "life stinks then we die", and that's that. no mourning no pain.
humans are very spiritual beings !
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Do I examine my faith? SURE..... that's what keeps it fresh. The power of discernment is considered a spiritual gift and that gift is honed by reading the Bible. Martin Luther challenged the teaching of his day by critically examination and became a stronger Christian in the process.

As for the Book of Mormon and the Koran, I have no problem with those who use them in their own pursuit of truth. In our pursuit of truth, we must realize that no mortal has a monopoly on truth.
Paradoxically enough the atheist by proclaiming "there is no god" and thus a monopoly on truth, has violated the very "reason" that they so admire. That is....there is NO PROOF that God is merely a myth, which means atheism is blind faith. Or should I say...it takes a strong blind faith in one's dogma to proclaim "no god" as a an absolute truth.
 
Oakland, it is real simple.

You can argue about many of the nuances of different faiths and Christianity. But the real issue and only issue to start with is, did Jesus rise from the grave? If he did, then you have to deal with what he said about the only way to heaven. If he didn't, then he was a liar and lunatic. For he has pulled off the biggest hoax the world has even known.

The fact is there is no credible argument to refute the resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact, scholars have tried refute the resurrection with many of them coming to realize that there is more than ample evidence to believe that the resurrection of Jesus did take place physically on this earth.

Happy searching!
 
(in response to THOTH's 1st response post)

I never implied such, THOTH.
As usual with Southern religious ways, you immediately take things out of context when dealing with us "heathens", "infidels" (or to quote Bush 41) us "non-citizens". In no way was I suggesting that we do not cry and mourn our loss. Of course we do that. I apologise for not making that clear to you, and will remember to point out what I thought was obvious in my future responses to you.

Of course we cry and mourn our loss. We miss our deceased just as much as you lot do. The difference being, we do not delude ourselves into fairy tales such as seeing them again. I will not argue against your last comment about humans being very spiritual beings, but I would say that it perhaps should be rephrased as so: "Humans are very complex beings. As such, they have the potential to posses an amazing sense of spirituality if they so desire."
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Again, like the doc, you fail to answer a couple of important queries I posed to you:
1. When a bacterium dies, does it get an afterlife?
2. Which life forms get an afterlife and which do not?
 
(in response to THOTH's 2nd response post)

I am glad to hear that you do indeed examine your faith, THOTH. However, that is not quite all that I asked. I asked "Do you critically examine your faith?" There is quite a difference in examining your faith and examining it critically.

Indeed, Martin Luther did challenge the overtly corrupt Catholic Church of his day. I applaud him for doing so. However, his well-known anti-Semitism is a point which I do not applaud him for, and indeed, condemn him for.
I have to ask you though, did you know that Martin Luther died a Catholic?
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lol, In no way do I suggest that any human has a monopoly on truth, mate.
ROFL, you really think that the Book of Morman is a valid christian doctrine? My goodness, the man blatantly was a poser. You do know that, that crackpot said that the "New Jerusalem" was going to be in Missouri?
He also claimed that Native Americans were actually a lost tribe of ancient Israel. For the FSM's sake, how much more bollocks does it take for you to see the obvious?
This post was edited on 10/4 9:57 PM by OaklandReb
 
(in reply to the last bit of THOTH's post that I somehow missed)

No, again, we do not claim a monopoly on truth. We arrive at out conclusions via evidence. Your religions and numerous others are lacking in evidence, and thus I am at the position that I am in. (Weak Position Atheist, which is to say, if you provide me with verifiable evidence, I will accept your religion as my own.)

In no way have we violated our reason.
It becomes ever more clear to me that you have never met an atheist in real life, and that is hardly surprising. The bigotry and intolerance we receive in this state is quite staggering. In most events in real life, I do not bother pronouncing my beliefs on religion (here in the US South) unless I am asked directly to do so. I have found that is the simplest thing to do, and it avoids fights and such nonsense as instigated by the (mainly) fundamentalist Baptist bigots.

Let me clear some things up which you seem to be missing or never have been told of:

1. Atheism is simply being without belief in a god or gods. Atheism is not a religion any more than not playing golf is a sport. There are no atheist churches or services to attend.

2. Atheists use science & logic to make determinations about the world & universe around them, but they do not "worship" science. The scientific process is simply a way to determine what's most likely true and what's not.

3. Atheists do tend to put a higher priority on quality of life than theists do, since atheists view this life as the only one they get. So they tend to enjoy the pursuit of happiness. However, they do not believe that they are gods themselves or worship themselves. There are many meek and non-egoist atheists.

4. (This one is especially true in my case)
Atheists are just as happy as theists, and some atheists who used to be religious are far happier as atheists. If an atheist is unhappy, it's usually because a theist is trying to force their religious views upon them.

5. (This one is also extremely true of me)
While there are a number of hard core atheists who believe we would be far better without religion than with it, most atheists simply want to live their lives without being persecuted or denigrated because of not having religious beliefs. Atheists will fight for the right to be free from religion whenever theists try to instill religion into government. Unfortunately in the US, most Christians see this as an attack on Christianity.

6. Many atheists have read & studied the bible, but what they see is a book of superstition which is filled with factual errors and contradictions. In fact, many atheists used to be religious at one time, but after seriously taking a look at their religious beliefs and studying the bible, they decided that religion was made up by man. In fact, there are many atheists who are more familiar with the bible than many Christians. It seems that many fervent Christians have never actually read through the bible.

7. not all atheists make the outright claim that God doesn't exist. Some, known as agnostic atheists, claim not to know whether or not a god exists, but don't believe in any. Most atheists look at the lack of evidence for his existence and the evidence that stories about God were made by man, they simply don't find reason to believe in him. There are a vocal few who do make the claim that there are no gods, and it is correct that they cannot prove it. However, it's not their place to disprove the existence of any gods, it's up to the believers in the gods to prove that they do exist before requiring others to believe in them.

(AND I DIRECT THIS ONE TO MY GOOD MATE DRREB)
8. There have been many atheist soldiers who have gone through wars without becoming Christians. The underlying theme of this argument, however, is that the best use of religion is as a crutch to get through rough times, which people do tend to do. This is why prison ministries are so successful, because they take someone who is at a low point in their life and preach to them.
 
Re: Oakland, it is real simple.

Welcome to the fray, Cobbrebel. All the best to you and yours.

Ah me, I'm afraid that you have already posted a misconception.
The 1st issue that one must address after addressing the God question is quite simple: Did the figure known as Jesus Christ actually exist?
Sure, you have the Bible and Qur'an to present as evidence that he did exist, but they differ tremendously on JC himself.
Christians present the argument 1(Father)+1(Son, who is actually the Father also, yet not so) +1 (Holy Ghost/Spirit)=1 (God, known as Jehova or his proper name, YHWH) , which always gives me a good chuckle. Muslims on the other hand revert back to the old Judaic argument of their is only one god and none of the other bit that christianity attests to.

As was the case with THOTH, you seem to be unable to look critically at your fellow religious mates. I respectfully ask that you look at my long response post to THOTH about Mormanism, Islam and Christianity and the "One True Way" bit. After doing so, I would ask you the following questions:

1. Do you not believe that Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormanism, was a poser?
2. (Same question as #1, but insert the Islamic Prophet Muhammad)
3. If you agree to the first two questions, why not the same for your own religion? What damning evidence do you lot have the you are the "One True Way" and the others are bollocks?

You are quite right about your bit about old JC. There is no credible evidence to refute the magical story of Jesus Christ, because there is NO credible evidence to support the Bible's claim except the bible. Therein lies the ultimate problem my friend!

I thank you for the wishes on the searching, and as Sir Winston Churchill always said "KBO" (Keep Buggering On, which I will keep doing.)
I allow a 1% chance that what the bible says is true, just as I do with Islamic and Judaic holy books. The evidence in all 3 books is lacking , but I will always allow that wee chance for all of them.


Thanks for the conversation mate.
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And you my dear friend Oakland have not done all your homework. Have you heard of the Jewish (not a Christian by the way) historian Flavius Josephus? Have you heard of the historian Erasmus? Those are just a couple of extra-biblical writings that allude or speak of a man named Christ that want on this earth in space and time.

Secondly, while you can debate which Christ it is, no one of any credible scholarship will deny that this Jesus did not exist and that he claimed He was God and the proof of that claim was the resurrection. Sooooo, you have to deal with what he had to say about who he is or you have to disprove his resurrection. All this other stuff you are throwing against the fan is all subjective. The resurrection is objective. Either it did happen or it did not. Prove to me it didn't happen and I will listen to the rest of your arguments.

Happy searching!:)
 
While reading through your excellent refutation post, I noticed your comment about "subjectiveness". I will start off by touching on that very point.

Your comment that I have not done "all" my homework is quite subjective.
What is "all"?
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The name Jospehus did ring a bell, and upon further research on the name, I have to admit, I was quite impressed. It is obvious that you have taken great lengths to arrive at your religious conclusion and because of the lengths you went to, you have my respect. It is quite amazing that I have now run across a Believer who actually has critically examined his faith.

All that being said, let's carry on with Josephus' writings.
Documents such as the Testimonium Flavianum (is that the work you are referring to? I am thinking so, so I will assume from this point on) reveal credibility issues as soon as you beging reading them. This doesn't mean they're all false, as they could well be true and credible, it just means that the standard of evidence they provide isn't earthshaking right now.

For example, its positive affirmations are a major sticking point in my humble opinion. It says, without qualification, “He was [the] Christ.” Elsewhere, it says he rose from the dead after three days. Josephus isn't obviously saying that this is what Christians think, he's apparently flat out saying it happened. This is a real Jew of the establishment we are talking about. He stayed a Jew all his life which means it is very doubtful he actually thought Jesus was the Messiah, which is what “Christ” meant in a Jewish context as far as I am aware. He also did a lot of what amounted to Public relations work for the Romans, from what I can tell, who weren't keen on prophesied kings. Had he actually written and released this passage at the time, as is, he’d have been thrown to the lions figuratively or literally.

Upon further research, The passage (that I put in parenthesis) comes to us via a set of Greek manuscripts, the earliest of which dates back to the 11th century. That means about a thousand years went by in which changes might have been made. In the third century, after reading the Testimonium, the Christian historian Origin wrote that Josephus “did not accept Jesus as Christ”. The version he read at the time, therefore, was likely to have given a different impression than the one we have.

From this fact alone, apart from the likelihood that the Testimonium was changed at some point to be more Christian-friendly, we can deduce one more thing: that Josephus probably did write something or other about Jesus. That isn’t saying much, because in his original piece he might simply have recounted the story preached by Christians without saying that any of it was fact.

Thus far, that is all that I have been able to research and learn in my research on the interesting character, and I will have to give you a refutation post about Erasmus, whom I have never heard of, either tomorrow or Friday, whichever time allows for.

Many thanks for the interesting figures you have provided.
 
There is a paradym in political correctness which goes that....
Anyone who expresses sentiment against Jews or Judaism is equal to Adolf Hitler and should be banished from society.
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BUT hate speech directed at Mormons is just fine and dandy...that's ok.
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Depicting all Muslims as terrorist is also politically correct.
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Baptist too are fair game, hatred of Southern Baptist is condoned.
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Catholics too can be slammed.
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One can defame Baptist, Catholics, Mormons, and Muslims then get away with, but don't say any harsh words against Jews.
So why the double standard?
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This post was edited on 8/18 10:29 PM by THOTH
 
Imagine that I tell you the following story:

I was in my room one night.
Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.
Next thing I know there is an angel in my room.
He tells me an amazing story.
He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.
On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.
These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.
Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.
Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.
Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.
I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things -- an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.
And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!
I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.
Now, what would you say to me about this story? Even though I do have a book, in English, that tells the story of this lost Jewish civilization, and even though I do have the signed attestations, what do you think? This story sounds nutty, doesn't it?
You would ask some obvious questions. For example, at the very simplest level, you might ask, "Where are the ruins and artifacts from this Jewish civilization in America?" The book transcribed from the plates talks about millions of Jewish people doing all kinds of things in America. They have horses and oxen and chariots and armor and large cities. What happened to all of this? I answer simply: it is all out there, but we have not found it yet. "Not one city? Not one chariot wheel? Not one helmet?" you ask. No, we haven't found a single bit of evidence, but it is out there somewhere. You ask me dozens of questions like this, and I have answers for them all.

Most people would assume that I am delusional if I told them this story. They would assume that there were no plates and no angel, and that I had written the book myself. Most people would ignore the attestations -- having people attest to it means nothing, really. I could have paid the attesters off, or I could have fabricated them. Most people would reject my story without question.

What's interesting is that there are millions of people who actually do believe this story of the angel and the plates and the book and the Jewish people living in North America 2,000 years ago. Those millions of people are members of the Mormon Church, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. The person who told this incredible story was a man named Joseph Smith, and he lived in the United States in the early 1800s. He told his story, and recorded what he "translated from the plates", in the Book of Mormon.

If you meet a Mormon and ask them about this story, they can spend hours talking to you about it. They can answer every question you have. Yet the 5.99 billion of us who are not Mormons can see with total clarity that the Mormons are delusional. It is as simple as that. You and I both know with 100% certainty that the Mormon story is no different from the story of Santa. And we are correct in our assessment. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

Another example

Imagine that I tell you this story:

A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business.
A very bright flash of light appeared.
A voice spoke out one word: "Read!" The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times.
Then the man asked, "What should I read?"
The voice said, "Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before."
The man ran home to his wife.
While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel.
At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams.
Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as "revelations in his heart," sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said.
Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth.
The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there.
The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today.
[Source: "Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick, Alpha press, 2002]
What do you make of this story? If you have never heard the story before, you may find it to be nonsensical in the same way that you feel about the stories of the golden plates and Santa. You would especially feel that way once you read the book that was supposedly transcribed from Gabriel, because much of it is opaque. The dreams, the horse, the angel, the ascension, and the appearances of the angel in the flesh -- you would dismiss them all because it is all imaginary.
But you need to be careful. This story is the foundation of the Muslim religion, practiced by more than a billion people around the world. The man is named Mohammed, and the book is the Koran (also spelled Qur'an or Qur'aan). This is the sacred story of the Koran's creation and the revelation of Allah to mankind.

Despite the fact that a billion Muslims profess some level of belief in this story, people outside the Muslim faith consider the story to be imaginary. No one believes this story because this story is a fairy tale. They consider the Koran to be a book written by a man and nothing more. A winged horse that flew to heaven? That is imaginary -- as imaginary as flying reindeer.

If you are a Christian, please take a moment right now to look back at the Mormon and Muslim stories. Why is it so easy for you to look at these stories and see that they are imaginary fairy tales? How do you know, with complete certainty, that Mormons and Muslims are delusional? You know these things for the same reason you know that Santa is imaginary. There is no evidence for any of it. The stories involve magical things like angels and winged horses, hallucinations, dreams. Horses cannot fly -- we all know that. And even if they could, where would the horse fly to? The vacuum of space? Or is the horse somehow "dematerialized" and then "rematerialized" in heaven? If so, those processes are made up too. Every bit of it is imaginary. We all know that.

An unbiased observer can see how imaginary these three stories are. In addition, Muslims can see that Mormons are delusional, Mormons can see that Muslims are delusional, and Christians can see that both Mormons and Muslims are delusional.

One final example

Now let me tell you one final story:

God inseminated a virgin named Mary, in order to bring his son incarnate into our world.
Mary and her fiance, Joseph, had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the census. There Mary gave birth to the Son of God.
God put a star in the sky to guide people to the baby.
In a dream God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Then God stood by and watched as Herod killed thousands and thousands of babies in Israel in an attempt to kill Jesus.
As a man, God's son claimed that he was God incarnate: "I am the way, the truth and the life," he said.
This man performed many miracles. He healed lots of sick people. He turned water into wine. These miracles prove that he is God.
But he was eventually given the death sentence and killed by crucifixion.
His body was placed in a tomb.
But three days later, the tomb was empty.
And the man, alive once again but still with his wounds (so anyone who doubted could see them and touch them), appeared to many people in many places.
Then he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the father almighty, never to be seen again.
Today you can have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. You can pray to this man and he will answer your prayers. He will cure your diseases, rescue you from emergencies, help you make important business and family decisions, comfort you in times of worry and grief, etc.
This man will also give you eternal life, and if you are good he has a place for you in heaven after you die.
The reason we know all this is because, after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life. Their written attestations are proof of the veracity of this story.
This, of course, is the story of Jesus. Do you believe this story? If you are a Christian, you probably do. I could ask you questions for hours and you will have answers for every one of them, in just the same way that I had answers for all of the Santa questions that my friend asked me in Example 1. You cannot understand how anyone could question any of it, because it is so obvious to you.
Here is the thing that I would like to help you understand: The four billion people who are not Christians look at the Christian story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. In other words, there are four billion people who stand outside of the Christian bubble, and they can see reality clearly. The fact is, the Christian story is completely imaginary.

How do the four billion non-Christians know, with complete certainty, that the Christian story is imaginary? Because the Christian story is just like the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. There is the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. People outside the Christian faith look at the Christian story and note these facts:

The miracles are supposed to "prove" that Jesus is God, but, predictably, these miracles left behind no tangible evidence for us to examine and scientifically verify today. They all involved faith healings and magic tricks - see this proof.
Jesus is resurrected, but, predictably, he does not appear to anyone today - see this proof.
Jesus ascended into heaven and answers our prayers, but, predictably, when we pray to him nothing happens. We can statistically analyse prayer and find that prayers are never answered - see this proof.
The book where Matthew, Mark, Luke and John make their attestations does exist, but, predictably, it is chock full of problems and contradictions - see this proof.
And so on.
In other words, the Christian story is a fairly tale, just like the other three examples we have examined.
Now, look at what is happening inside your mind at this moment. I am using solid, verifiable evidence to show you that the Christian story is imaginary. Your rational mind can see the evidence. Four billion non-Christians would be happy to confirm for you that the Christian story is imaginary. However, if you are a practicing Christian, you can probably feel your "religious mind" overriding both your rational mind and your common sense as we speak. Why? Why were you able to use your common sense to so easily reject the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story, but when it comes to the Christian story, which is just as imaginary, you are not?

Try, just for a moment, to look at Christianity with the same amount of healthy skepticism that you used when approaching the stories of Santa, Joseph Smith and Mohammed. Use your common sense to ask some very simple questions of yourself:

Is there any physical evidence that Jesus existed? - No. He left no trace. His body "ascended into heaven." He wrote nothing down. None of his "miracles" left any permanent evidence. There is, literally, nothing.
Is there any reason to believe that Jesus actually performed these miracles, or that he rose from the dead, or that he ascended into heaven? - There is no more of a reason to believe this than there is to believe that Joseph Smith found the golden plates hidden in New York, or that Mohammed rode on a magical winged horse to heaven. Probably less of a reason, given that the record of Jesus' life is 2,000 years old, while that of Joseph Smith is less than 200 years old.
You mean to tell me that I am supposed to believe this story of Jesus, and there is no proof or evidence to go by beyond a few attestations in the New Testament of a Bible that is provably meaningless? - Yes, you are supposed to believe it. You are supposed to take it on "faith."
No one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc.
Therefore, the question I would ask you to consider right now is simple: Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense? For example:

Christians know that when the Egyptians built gigantic pyramids and mummified the bodies of their pharaohs, that it was a total waste of time -- otherwise Christians would build pyramids.
Christians know that when the Aztecs carved the heart out of a virgin and ate it, that it accomplished nothing -- otherwise Christians would kill virgins.
Christians know that when Muslims face Mecca to pray, that it is pointless -- otherwise Christians would face Mecca when they pray.
Christians know that when Jews keep meat and dairy products separate, that they are wasting their time -- otherwise the cheeseburger would not be an American obsession.
Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. This book, if you will let it, can tell you why.
A simple experiment

If you are a Christian who believes in the power of prayer, here is a very simple experiment that will show you something very interesting about your faith.

Take a coin out of your pocket. Now pray sincerely to Ra:

Dear Ra, almighty sun god, I am going to flip this ordinary coin 50 times, and I am asking you to cause it to land heads-side-up all 50 times. In Ra's name I pray, Amen.
Now flip the coin. Chances are that you won't get past the fifth or sixth flip and the coin will land tails.
What does this mean? Most people would look at this data and conclude that Ra is imaginary. We prayed to Ra, and Ra did nothing. We can prove that Ra is imaginary (at least in the sense of prayer-answering ability) by using statistical analysis. If we flip the coin thousands of times, praying to Ra each time, we will find that the coin lands heads or tails in exact correlation with the normal laws of probability. Ra has absolutely no effect on the coin no matter how much we pray. Even if we find a thousand of Ra's most faithful believers and ask them to do the praying/flipping, the results will be the same. Therefore, as rational people, we conclude that Ra is imaginary. We look at Ra in the same way that we look at Leprechauns, Mermaids, Santa and so on. We know that people who believe in Ra are delusional.

Now I want you to try the experiment again, but this time I want you to pray to Jesus Christ instead of Ra. Pray sincerely to Jesus like this:

Dear Jesus, I know that you exist and I know that you hear and answer prayers as you promise in the Bible. I am going to flip this ordinary coin 50 times, and I am asking you to cause it to land heads-side-up all 50 times. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.
Now flip the coin. Once again, after the fifth or sixth flip, the coin will land tails.
If we flip the coin thousands of times, praying to Jesus each time, we will find that the coin lands heads or tails in exact correlation with the normal laws of probability. It is not like there are two laws of probability -- one for Christians who pray and the other for non-Christians. There is only one law of probability because prayers have zero effect. Jesus has no effect on our planet no matter how much we pray. We can prove that conclusively using statitical analysis.

If you believe in God, watch what is happening inside your mind right now. The data is absolutely identical in both experiments. With Ra you looked at the data rationally and concluded that Ra is imaginary. But with Jesus... something else will happen. In your mind, you are already coming up with a thousand rationalizations to explain why Jesus did not answer your prayers:

It is not his will
He doesn't have time
I didn't pray the right way
I am not worthy
I do not have enough faith
I cannot test the Lord like this
It is not part of Jesus' plan for me
And on and on and on...
One rationalization that you may find yourself developing is particularly interesting. You may say to yourself: “Well, of course Jesus doesn’t answer me when I pray about a coin toss, because it is too trivial." Where did this rationalization come from? If you read what Jesus says about prayer in the Bible (see this proof), Jesus does not ever say, "don't pray to me about coin tosses." Jesus clearly says he will answer your prayers, and he puts no boundaries on what you may pray for. You invented this rationalization out of thin air.
You are an expert at creating rationalizations for Jesus. The reason you are an expert is because Jesus does not answer any of your prayers (see this proof). The reason why Jesus does not answer any of your prayers is because Jesus and God are imaginary.

My own fairy tale story is true Islam is alive and is Gods religion .the
In Islam no its alll submission

i do beleive this is the link to which you or one is talking of
This post was edited on 8/23 8:11 PM by Mrs Halal
 
The bible tells you not to believe all the spirits because the devil is able to transform himself into an angel of light to further deceive that is why most christian dominations consider mormons a cult.
 
Originally posted by rebelled:
@ "the Doc" I grew up Baptist impressed into me by my parents and grandparents. Early though I started to question some "claims". In high school (quite awhile back now) I started attending church services of friends, girlfriends of other "faiths" (really just different beliefs). as I found new truths in other denominations that differed from my own (i.e. Church of Christ, seventh day advents, Catholic, ect) i also found people could believe crazy things.

I developed a love for history at this point too that i carried into college and began to look into the history of religion in general. At that point i found there was a lot I just didn't know about Christianity and religion in general. I realized most of what I had been taught is propaganda devised as a means of controlling the masses just as it has been for many other religions. It's not that one religion is more right than another but that they are all there for the same reason, now and throughout history.
This post was edited on 7/17 5:36 PM by rebelled
Click to expand...

I perused the thread and picked out this reply as one aI could undertand and reply to. I grew up in an atheist household. I am a BAC ( born again Christian). I grew up in Oxford , my parents were both professors and my whole family have been in academia. I am a scientist, graduate degrees in Microbioly and Biochemistry. I have faith in my Lord , Jesus Christ. I have not studied this to great depth and accept Him as my Lord and Savior. What I like about Christianity is that it is a religion of Hope. Our God is a just God. that means there are consequences and therefore judgments for violations of the precepts. I am sorry but I don't try to rationalize my faith through facts and examples, as scientists we accept theories without understanding them, so as laymen if we choose to accpet theology on faith there is no dichotomy of principles.
 
UMOCREB.....You just said in 1 paragraph what I should have said 3 pages ago and backed away from all the needless debate that always goes nowhere. I cannot and willnot attempt to defend God. One either believes or doesn`t. If one sincerely seeks, he will find the truth. Seeking does not mean scanning scripture to find inconsistencies. There was a time when I lived in moral assent, and it simply was no good, no help, wothless. To equate truely seeking God in prayer to flipping a coin and asking God to influence the result is not even something I will honor with any response or discussion. Seek and you shall find.........that is, really, really seek. God is so big one can`t miss Him. He certainly hasn`t missed knowing His man. He is worth spending some quality time getting to know, and getting to know as much as we can know about Him.
 
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